The Phil-list Apr_2005: RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest

From: Dave Parmly <PARMLYD@pilottravelcenters.com>
Date: Wed Apr 06 2005 - 07:22:52 CDT

This is a great thread. Lots of good stuff here.

RE Trek Poles:

Wonderful. 80+% of our crew used them. Saw ample wildlife. There is
noise on rocky parts of the trail but I never saw it as a major deal.
Rubber Tips help out here. Jack, sorry about any noise, my knees and
hips need them. Easy to get the hang of, but then again I'm a long-time
XCS guy.

RE Rain gear:

Me-Marmot Pre-cip. Don't leave home without it. Safe as in your
momma's arms. The faux-felt along the collar is great when it's a bit
chilly. Like Coop said, weighs and costs a tad more than Thunderlight
but you don't get the clammy feeling I go with my Red Ledge. Now #2 son
gets old Red Ledge. Poor child.
#1 Son: Columbia Omni-tech. Campmor, on sale for like $60. A steal at
that price.
We saved money by buying the Red Ledge pants which are very inexpensive
and worked superbly. I would not pay top dollar for pants that don't
get the pounding of head and shoulders.

IMHAWIO, a tad more weight is small price for 100% dry. Mid-July on is
the "Rainy Season". Rained 11 out of 11 in on 717 in 2004. Hooah. Suck
builds character...embrace the suck! Suck at Philmont beats bliss
anywhere else!

Dave Parmly
IWTGBTP!

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont-request@troop47.com [mailto:philmont-request@troop47.com]

Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:45 PM
To: Philmont
Subject: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1327

philmont Digest Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:44:34 -0500 V01 #1327

Today's topics:
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?'
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?'
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Trek 24?'
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trek 24?'
     'Water Purification and Iodine - Take 99'
     'Water Purification and Iodine - Take 100'
     'Re: Raingear and trekking poles.'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Trek 11 Help'
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?'
     'RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:44:28 -0400
From: "Troop 6 Scoutmaster" <troop6scoutmaster@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

Yeah, we had one crew on the same trek as us that sung showtunes pretty
much
non-stop. Imagine climbing over Phillips or Trail Peak while belting
out
"The Hills are alive ..."

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]On
Behalf Of Phil Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:15 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

In the crews that I have been in, the sounds of the hiking poles have
been
more than drown out by the other noise made by 8-10 teenagers.

Phil Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Jack Bolinger
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

I guess I am in the minority here, but the "Click and Clack" of hiking
poles
while going down a quiet scenic trail or path is just too much for me.
They
are very noisy. If you have 4-6 members of your crew using them the crew
will sound like a drum set coming down the trail.

The chances of coming up on deer or other wildlife to see with that
racket going on is close to nil. Like smokers, those who use them tend
to
adapt to this noise and forget about the imposition on other hikers.
They
tend to use them all the time even when on the flat roads at Philmont. I
have asked them to remain behind the main body of hikers so that those
up
front will have a chance to see wildlife and they seem to be offended
that
some has noticed the noise created by the constant "Click and Clack".

To hike at Philmont on some of the most beautiful trails and have
the
"Click and Clack" going on around is a little much for me. The effect is
like bringing a radio on a nice canoe trip, constant background noise
where
there should be none or very little. I do understand that many of those
who
use them are addicts and don't like to hear about the negatives and
learn
that the clicking and clacking is annoying to others but I think it
needs to
be said. If you are a pole user, and are going down a quiet backcountry
trail sometime, pick your poles up and listen a while to the others pole
users. The sound of those things will carry a long way. For some I guess
the
sound of the poles acts like bear bells so their trek encounters no
wildlife, some may like this idea but I enjoy quietly slipping thru the
woods... I guess I am in the minority though on this point.. My
apologies in
advance to you clickers and clackers.....

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Scott Berger
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 8:45 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

Does anyone have a strong feeling, one way or the other, about using
trekking poles? Do they really make it easier?

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:17:49 -0500
From: "Larry Daniell" <daniellhome@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

Nicely done! Thanks for directing my focus on improving the skills and
character of the boys while making it fun for all.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Joseph Jansen
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 2:53 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

I haven't read all the messages on trekking poles but the issue of the
noise
they make grabbed my attention.

It really is possible to hike silently (or nearly so) so as to catch
wildlife unaware. Teaching how to do this used to be a part of Scouting
(stalking skills).

For trek poles a simple remedy is two fold: 1) get a rubber tip on the
bottom of each pole and 2) place the pole on the ground before putting
weight on it rather than hit the ground with it.

There are other practices which make for silent hiking. Tape down or
cushion noisy gear with cloth.
Adjust your backpack and clothing so you don't make "swishing" sounds.
Change the way you place your foot on the ground after taking a step so
as
to make little noise. A group can become very "silent" if each member
takes
a turn and carries their gear in front of the group for 10 yards or so
and
receives constructive suggestions for becoming more silent.

Learning how to move silently can be made into a Scout game. One at a
time,
a Scout leaves the campsite, goes about 50 yards out and then tries to
stealthily reenter. When you hear him make a sound you let him know
he's
been "caught". Award points for the closeness to camp achieved before
being
heard. You then let the next Scout leave camp and try the same thing.
Be
sure to have everyone get several chances in this game so they have the
opportunity to improve.

Leave No Trace can also mean imitate wildlife and make no unnecessary
noise.

Joe Jansen
JAJansenJr@gmail.com
http://www.customprograms.info/scoutingresources.htm
I used to be an Owl. SC-70-15

>From: Roman Smith <smith.13@nd.edu>
>Reply-To: philmont@troop47.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list philmont <philmont@troop47.com>
>Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?
>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:36:28 -0500
>
>No, I never left the list. I got enough email suggesting that I stay
>on the list.
>
>I have never used the trekking poles, but I use a hiking staff. If I
>were to head back to Philmont, I am sure that with my knees and hips I
>would now want to "click and clack" my way along the trail. The
>reports seem to make them essential for some of us who are less than
>perfect specimens of human beings.
>
>So what are the choices if we want to stop the "click and clack" of
>metal against the rocky trail of Philmont. If we put an age limit of
>50 on all hikers, then many troops would not be able to allow their
>scouts to enjoy the trails. However, that would give all of those
>healthy troops a better chance of getting through the registration
>process. (There is an upside to
>over-regulation.)
>
>But if we really want all scouts to experience Philmont once in their
>life, we may have to bite the bullet and allow frail men to advise the
>crew on the trail. Who cares if I am so noisy that my scouts do not
>get to see turkeys anyway. The bulls will still be there in the
>pasture. We will get to see at least one animal.
>
>In 1999 we came to a "T" in the trail and spent some time with the map
>trying to figure out if we turn right or left. We noticed that one or
>more member of the group in front of us was leaving marks with trekking

>poles, and they had gone right. We headed in that direction. After
>about a half mile, the marks disappeared along with any trace of
>footprints. We concluded that they had turned back and gone the other
>way. We did the same and latter found that we really should have
turned
left at the start.
>Which one of you guys on this list lead us astray? It had to be one of

>you, no one else was using trekking pole in 1999.
>
>Roman Smith
>
>At 08:04 AM 4/5/2005, you wrote:
>>I guess I am in the minority here, but the "Click and Clack" of hiking

>>poles while going down a quiet scenic trail or path is just too much
>>for me.
>>They
>>are very noisy. If you have 4-6 members of your crew using them the
>>crew will sound like a drum set coming down the trail.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
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>at http://usscouts.org/lists/ Listserv Commands at
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>-------------------------------------------------------
>Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
>Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
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>List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
>-------------------------------------------------------
>As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow Scouts and
>Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
>courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and
>reverent.
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------
Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe at
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-------------------------------------------------------
Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
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-------------------------------------------------------
As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow Scouts and
Scouters,
do your best to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous,
kind,
obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
-------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:35:51 -0400
From: Joe Simonis <js1864@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

I also like using a single hiking staff, for many of the same reasons
mentioned below, and a single, collapsible trekking pole made it easier
to
pack and send through the airport than a wooden staff. I tried two
poles on
a shakedown and didn't like that method at all, but I concede that it
would
have made the going a little easier on some of the longer, tougher,
climbs.
But so would have an extra couple of months in the gym.

Joe S.
ASM Troop 6
West Chester, PA

________________________________

From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Strother Hollingsworth
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:25 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

I like to hike with a single wooden staff I made from a tree branch. It
gives me the support I need when in difficult terrain, doesn't make much
noise or mark up the trails, and it is used as one of the dinning fly
poles.
I also like to have one hand free to grab my water bottle or camera. In
2001, I had my staff branded at Philmont. Can't do that with metal
trekking
poles. Everyone has their own system that they feel comfortable with.

YIS,

Strother Hollingsworth, 2001
Troop 297
Hoffman Estates, IL

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:47:53 EDT
From: Jamo0001@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Trek 24?

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We did Trek 24 in late June last year. We're from Kentucky and will be
more
than happy to discuss preparation, gear, trails, etc.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10
FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">We did Trek 24 in late June
last ye=
ar.  We're from Kentucky and will be more than happy to discuss
prepara=
tion, gear, trails, etc.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1f3.709db5d.2f8499c9_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:53:13 -0400
From: "Kevin Caine" <ptc897@adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trek 24?

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Don't forget that #24 has changed this year with day 4 being Greenwood
Canyon instead of Pueblano Ruins. =20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Larry Sims - KBR Elec
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:38 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trek 24?

=20

Mark,

=20

I am sending the Trek #24 Journal that our crew did after their 2004 =
trek as
an attachment to a separate email addressed to you directly. It is 14
pages.

=20

Larry Sims

KBRT-2290D

713.753.5307 Office

713.753. 7366 FAX

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Magnevolt@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:32 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Trek 24?

=20

Anyone do Trek 24 last year? =20
We will do it this year and I would like some input.=20
Thanks in advance
Mark

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</head>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial =
PTSIZE=3D10><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Don’t =
forget that
#24 has changed this year with day 4 being Greenwood Canyon instead of =
Pueblano
Ruins.  </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
owner-philmont@troop47.com
[mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>Larry Sims - KBR Elec<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 05,
=
2005 4:38
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients =
of list
philmont<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [Philmont]:
=
Trek 24?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am sending the
=
Trek #24
Journal that our crew did after their 2004 trek as an attachment to a =
separate
email addressed to you directly.  It is 14 pages.</span></font></p>

<div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
owner-philmont@troop47.com
[mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>Magnevolt@aol.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 05,
=
2005 7:32
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients =
of list
philmont<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Philmont]:
=
Trek 24?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Anyone do Trek 24 last =
year?  <br>
We will do it this year and I would like some input. <br>
Thanks in advance<br>
Mark</span></font></p>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:11:31 -0400
From: "Dr. Bob Klein" <drbob@troop111.org>
Subject: Water Purification and Iodine - Take 99

Per Wally's Post of earlier today, here is one of my treatises from 2003

(as you will see from Wally's 2003 query, some questions never die):

1) Regardless of what you add to "kill" the iodine, whether Vitamin C or

a drink mix, you have to fully purify the water first (that is, wait the

full hour (or whatever) that Philmont is recommending, then add the
Vitamin C or drink mix). The reason why is that iodine will react with
the Vitamin C or select ingredients in the drink mix MUCH faster than it

will kill off the more stubborn critters - so if you add them nearly
simultaneously, you've effectively done nothing to purify the water. And

in the case of drink mix, you've now got a canteen with critters
included that are now residing in a rich nutrient broth (sugar water) -
so you'll soon have a zillion more critters. This is why you have to be

very careful to rinse residual drink mix out of a canteen before Polar
Pure-ing it again - even a little drink mix can kill off your iodine.
And this is why one of the salient reasons why my Crews NEVER have drink

mix in any of their canteens (and neither should yours).

2) It is *not* actually the drink mix sugar that reacts with iodine, but

rather all the other ingredients in the drink mix - flavoring
ingredients, preservatives, and excipients (so "diet" drink mixes are
just as bad as sugared drink mixes; don't be deceived just because your
drink mix is "sugarless"). And if your drink mix is NEW! IMPROVED!
VITAMIN C ADDED!, it will almost instantly destroy Polar Pure.

3) If anyone in your Crew has a thyroid condition (something you should
specifically ask during an "all-hands" meeting where parents are
present), then they probably cannot use Polar Pure. I am not an MD, but

it is my understanding that even iodide ions ("dead" iodine remaining
after treatment with Vitamin C or some other similar agent) will still
cause a thyroid to go haywire, same as iodine. In such cases, that
person will need to use a chlorine based purification method, or go with

a good filter THAT DOESN'T ALSO HAVE A PURIFIER IN IT (since most of
those purifiers are - you guessed it - iodine based). On chlorine, you
can use standard Chlorox Bleach (1 drop per liter, wait 10 minutes (2
drops, wait 20, if cloudy or very cold)), or go with a chlorine based
water purification tablet (there are still some out there, though the
brand-names escape me right now). On Chlorox, make sure you get plain
Chlorox, not one with any extra ingredients in it. In addition, you
need a small, leak-proof squeeze bottle, and whoever is using it needs
to be very mindful that chlorox is a very powerful oxidizing agent, and
undiluted will eat clothing and cause chemical burns on the skin. And
don't hold it next to your face (eyes) when adding - a single drop in an

eye is an immediate medical emergency. For Scouts, careful training
obviously required. On the squeeze bottle, about a 10 mL bottle is 2-3
as much as you'd ever need for one person on a Philmont trek.

If you have a Crew member with a thyroid condition, you need to be
equally mindful of what water is used to prepare your meals. Meals
requiring boiling water don't need purified water, but cold water
desserts that do, also represent a danger.

If you have no-one on your trek with a thyroid condition, but by about
Day III you have a Scout or Advisor claiming that they are absolutely
exhausted but still can't sleep at night, and they're drinking
Polar-Pure'd water, you should suspect an undiagnosed thyroid condition,

and contact Base Camp for advice.

Finally, I will restate a comment I have made many times before -
there's nothing wrong with Polar Pure, and it's fine for 499 out of
every 500 trekkers - so don't get too hung up on the above treatise, and

start devising all sorts of anti-Polar Pure defenses. "Background
Information Only" unless you know you have an issue.

[Note Added in Proof - As has been stated numerous times, it appears
Polar Pure is on the way out anyway. However, the basic premise still
holds - the water should be purified completely, whatever system is
used, *before* adding anything else to it.

Additional Note Added in Proof - If you suspect a thyroid condition on
shakedowns or similar activities where polar pure or iodine purified
water is being used, the trekker should immediately consult a physician;

you don't need this kind of a surprise on the trail. Inherent in the
previous sentence is the suggestion to use Polar Pure on your
shakedowns, so you find out here, not there. Yes, even though we
probably aren't using it this year (assume nothing!)]

- Dr. Bob

Feurtado, Walter (Contractor) wrote:
I was doing training with Dr. Bob, who is a chemist and he said that
sugar and iodine will react with each other and will leave the
contaminate alone. Perhaps Dr. Bob could elaborate.

When we have scouts who must put drink mix to flavor the water, it is OK

if it is done AFTER the water has been purified. The problem is that if

there is any residue, it might affect the purification process.

Just a thought,

Wally Feurtado
2004 Philmont Trip Coordinator
National Capital Area Council

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:11:56 -0400
From: "Dr. Bob Klein" <drbob@troop111.org>
Subject: Water Purification and Iodine - Take 100

Another treatise from last year:

There have been some comments that Polar Pure will be withdrawn from the

market. It appears that the increasing regulatory hassles WRT iodine
may be too much for a small "niche" company to overcome. However, a
quick perusal of their website says nothing about it (yet). Others on
the List may have more definitive info.

There are dozens of authoritative sources on how to purify water in the
backcountry. Punch "water purification" into Google if you have a free
month or two. However, in the immortal - and accurate - words of John
Leblanc, there are a hundred ways to skin a cat, and whichever one you
pick, you will still pretty much end up with a skinned cat. But the
quality and speed of the job will differ based on the technique you
chose.

It basically boils down to what exactly are you trying to conquer, and
how much time, money, and effort you are willing to put into it. You
have four basic problems - debris, bacteria, viruses, and pollution.
That order is also the order of difficulty in their removal or
neutralization - debris is (usually) trivial, bacteria tough, viruses
tougher still, and pollution (depending on what it is) from moderately
difficult to all but impossible.

You have various techniques, from stone age (boiling for ten minutes) to

space age (purifying filters, unusual chemicals, or this new MIOX gadget

that has been discussed at some length these past 10 days or so).

Boiling will kill nearly everything (excepting some really hardy viruses

that most of us will never encounter), and will even get rid of
pollutants with any appreciable vapor pressure. However, it does
nothing for debris or most pollutants, takes a ton of fuel and a ton of
time, requires a cooling off period to be able to drink, and usually
results in really flat (nasty) tasting water.

Oxidizing chemicals will (when used properly) kill most bacteria in a
reasonable amount of time. Some can kill viruses too, but can take a
looooooong time to do so. Some will react with certain types of
pollutants, and turn them into other types of pollutants - which may or
may not be an improvement on the original set (it's a crapshoot). They
do nothing for debris, many viruses, and most pollutants.

Filters easily remove debris, but clogging is problematic, and can be a
disastrous drawback in some settings (endless silty or muddy water).
Back-contamination can (and probably will) occur for the untrained or
foolishly careless - but at least can be corrected when it does occur,
as long as the fact that it *has* occurred is *recognized*. Filters do
nothing for most pollutant chemicals, but may be able to remove some
macromolecular pollutants. Depending on the filter quality (see next
paragraph), they can remove from most to all bacteria, and from some to
nearly all viruses.

As noted in the previous paragraph, probably the biggest issue is filter

quality. Think of screening as an analogy. A cheap filter is link
fence, a decent filter has chicken wire, a good filter has window
screen, and a great filter has ultrafine mosquito netting. Obviously,
the higher the quality, the better the filtration. Conversely, however,

the finer the mesh, the more difficult it is to force the water through
it, and the easier it will clog. This is not a perfect correlation,
however, because some filters compensate by having more filtering
surface. So a really top notch filter has a really fine mesh, and also
a large surface area. You may need to take out a small loan to buy it.
Clogging is (partially) alleviated by back-flushing procedures, but that

is also another potential area for screwing up.

Next up are Purifiers, which come in two types, which I will refer to as

"standard" and "absorbent" for lack of any better terms. A "standard"
purifier includes both a filter and some form of cartridge that contains

usually iodine (some other chemical may also be used, depending on the
brand and model). So it both filters the water, and chemically treats
it (the best of both systems). The same comments made above on filter
quality pertain to the filters in standard purifiers. So, a standard
purifier will remove debris, and either filter or chemically kill up to
nearly all bacteria and up to most viruses, but still doesn't do much
for pollutants other than what was noted above under chemicals and
filters.

This is where an absorbent purifier comes in. These add yet a last
step, a charcoal or other absorbent based cartridge. These absorb most
pollutants, and so do the best job of all. I believe (but I'm not sure)

that the top-of-the-line purifiers have both a chemical cartridge and an

absorbent cartridge in addition to their filters.

There are even more advanced technologies (like UV-light or osmolality
based systems) that are so completely over the top that no-one on this
List will ever even hear of them, never mind use them. I ain't goin'
there.

You will note that I have discussed the attributes and/or failings of no

brand names or models, nor will I. This field is changing (and
improving) rapidly, and what was state-of-the-art two years ago is
yesterday's news today. Two general statements can be made: First,
bring the system you need to suit the area where you'll be using it;
don't spend a fortune to appease paranoia. This is North America, not
Rwanda, Bolivia, or Cambodia. While there are some problem locales
here, most aren't that bad (if they were, we'd all be half-dead).
Second, like with most things, you get what you pay for. Fortunately,
in most areas of North America, even cheap is usually adequate.

Hope this puts things in perspective. I am sure that John L. and others

can expand on the finer points.

- Dr. Bob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:14:36 -0400
From: "Robert Mack" <mackrm@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Raingear and trekking poles.

Last year was my first time to Philmont at age 52. I bought Raingear
from
REI Marmot and treking poles foor me and my son. Both were lifesavers.
I
agree that the poles do make noinse, but it can be toned down by the
hiker
with practice. The first time I stopped using them on a part of the
trail,
the lead advisor all of a sudden whipped around and almost ran me over.
I
thought he had seen a bear, when in reality he thought I died because he

didn't hear the "click and Clack of Mr. Mack"

It was kind of amusing.

The rain pants came in handy in the early morning when I wanted to start
off
with shorts but it was a tad chilly. As soon as it warmed up , they
came
off and went into the top pouch of the pack for that quick grab during
the
after lunch downpour/hailstorm almost every day.

Here are my top essentials for a succesful hike. It is not a complete
list,
but these things are a must for me. Your comfort will vary.
Good rain gear
Trekking poles
3/4 length thermarest
Lexan bowl
plastic cup from trail kit
lexan knife and spoon
three legged stool
4 - 1qt water bottles
wide brimmed hat and sunglasses
and 11 hearty souls to share it with
Let the good times hike!!!

Bob Mack
621-d5 04
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve..." <srharper@hanco.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Raingear

> Mike,
> Is there a need to take the pants?
> Thanks
> Steve...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Michael_J_Conkey@nbc.gov>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:59 AM
> Subject: [Philmont]: Raingear
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wanted to pass on the following from the "voice of experience".
>> Make
>> sure that your crew members don't skimp on raingear? While we didn't

>> need
>> our raingear much in 2002, in 2004 we were in a monsoon most of the
time.
>> I am impressed by the Marmot Pre-Cip and Pre-Cip Plus raingear. Very
>> lightweight, yet breathable and waterproof. My daughter and I made a

>> last
>> minute change to this gear (due to the weight of our old gear) and
never
>> got wet in it. And we had rain every day, accompanied with hail
several
>> times. The coat will cost you $100, but you can usually find it on
the
>> internet for $75 or so. The pants are $75, but again, I think you
can
> find
>> them places for $50 or less. Our crew was OK in the raingear
department,
>> but most everyone (besides the Pre-Cip wearing folks) had bleed
through
> and
>> wetness. Our sister crew was from Abilene, TX, and their raingear
stunk.
>> I guess it doesn't rain much there in West Texas <g>. It was the one
> thing
>> their advisor said he would change for their next trip -- a meeting
at
> his
>> house, everyone puts on their raingear, and he turns the hose on
them.
>> Anyone who got wet would need to buy new raingear. We saw several
youth
>> hiking on the trail wearing trash bags obtained at staff camp. This
can
>> lead to bad hypothermia issues when hiking at the higher elevations!
>>
>> I have no financial interest in Marmot, just passing on my
experience.
> I'm
>> sure there are other great raingear styles out there. YIS. Mike
Conkey
>> ('76, '02 & '04).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe at http://usscouts.org/lists/
>> Listserv Commands at http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
>> Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
>> List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
>> List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
>> Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
>> loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
>> cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe at http://usscouts.org/lists/
> Listserv Commands at http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
> Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
> List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
> List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
> -------------------------------------------------------
> As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
> Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
> loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
> cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:21:55 -0400
From: "Jim Krempel" <ewokscout@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Trek 11 Help

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Steve: Here's an old post: my Advisor's Log from Trek 11 in '04. Hope
=
this helps.

2004 Philmont Trek 11 Advisor's Notes

Here's one Advisor's summary of a fantastic first Philmont expedition, =
10-21 July 2004. Crew 710H, coastal dwellers from Anne Arundel County,
=
just south of Baltimore, Maryland, hiked in very visible blaze orange =
t-shirts. Since we were all Arrowmen, we took the Lenni Lenape name of
=
Newo Sipo Pemsit (Four Rivers Walkers) in honor of the OA and our home =
Scouting District. Our crew cheer of "BAM - ORANGE !" echoed over many
=
a precipice.

The Crew selected Itinerary 11, a beautiful 57-mile trek through the =
South and Central Country, with exactly the programs everyone wanted. =
As an older crew of almost all Eagle Scouts, we kicked it up a notch to
=
about 65 miles with side hikes (one Advisor and the fastest hikers =
racked up over 80 miles with side hikes.) The unusual rain levels this
=
Summer made everything below 11,000 feet lush and green. We found =
watering points everywhere, though the early rains most afternoons got a
=
little irritating (along with legions of skeeters at some camps, =
especially Wild Horse.) Wet as it was, we were kind of surprised that =
we weren't offered a shower till day nine at 'Cito.

I'd like to put in a quick plug for Blue Sky Adventures =
(www.blueskyadventures.net) out of South Florida. Run by Mike Pardue, a
=
long-time Scoutmaster, they provided an action packed two-day tour to =
acclimatize us to the high altitude. We toured Albuquerque, Sandia Peak
=
Tram, Bandelier National Monument, and went whitewater kayaking on the =
Rio Grande. All fees, hotel costs and meals were covered, including =
friendly, knowledgeable guides and drivers to/from Philmont. This was a
=
mini-vacation before our Philmont expedition, worth every penney.and the
=
Advisors didn't have to do anything but enjoy it!=20
=20
Camping HQ (basecamp) processing was very well organized and painless in
=
both directions. Our Ranger was Kevin Clegg, a fine Eagle Scout from =
upstate Michigan. He was just the right blend of trailwise, =
self-assured, and easy going: the perfect fit for our crew. The =
trailbound campfire was subdued and rather serious. In contrast, the =
homebound campfire was rowdy, fun, and ultimately very touching as we =
sang the Philmont Hymn and truly understood what it meant. The =
highlight was personally getting to salute my own son, Keith, at the =
campfire for a tough job done well as our Crew Chief. An eight year =
father-son dream come true.=20

Ranger Training was on the Rayado River (with a quick side hike to =
Abreau for the "cantina" and goat milking). Our second day was moved =
from Lookout Meadow to the new trail camp at Carson Meadow. Absolutely
=
beautiful, with Kevin sharing some special side hikes to nearby high =
points.=20

Food was plentiful and commissary re-supplies timed about right. =
Hoofing a fresh load of meals for 12 souls from PJ up to Wild Horse and
=
over Phillips was something we probably could have done without. =
"Cracker Mania" is under control but Tropical Gorp seems to be the =
common favorite now. The dehydrated stuff gets bland: Tabasco, Lawry's
=
seasoned salt, and garlic salt really helped.

Staffers everywhere were helpful, upbeat, and good with the crew. =
Everyone unanimously picked as their favorite program sites Cyphers =
Mine, Apache Springs, and Clear Creek, in that order. Cyphers included
=
the forge, a mine tour with "Muck Out" (you have to try it) and the =
famous "Stomp" live mountain music review. Andrew, one of our more =
outgoing Crewmembers, won the nightly Cyphers Porch Tough Man Contest by
=
eating 11 pilot biscuits in two minutes! We slept together as a crew in
=
a large Adirondack called a "mucker's shack." Surprisingly good sleep =
in the crisp mountain air.=20

There were bear alerts at several places (especially Clark's Fork), but
=
we didn't see one. While we never saw it, at one point near Crooked =
Creek Camp we did notice the distinctive smell of cat urine and heard a
=
low growl from the rocks. Probably a cougar marking it's territory and
=
defending a kill. Golden ground squirrels (mini-bears) were everywhere,
=
especially at Apache Springs and Cyphers Mine, some almost tame enough =
to feed by hand.

Our year-long preparation had three parts: physical, gear/organization,
=
and psychological. The many shakedown hikes on the AT built the crew =
into a team, the developed mental toughness let us dig deep when we =
needed to. Facing a raging hailstorm with a thirty degree temperature =
drop and lightning strikes as we peaked Mount Phillips indeed put us to
=
the test. The preparation paid off: no one was hurt or hypothermic, =
the guys responded like pros, and we camped as brothers.

We lost one advisor to injuries early on the fourth day. Nothing =
serious, but too painful to continue. A Wilderness First Aid course, =
along with Gold Bond, Ace Bandages, and Ibuprofen saw us through our =
medical needs. Slight altitude sickness above 10.5 K feet for a couple
=
of crew members - quickly taken care of with Tylenol, plenty of water, =
and some rest - air is pretty thin at 11,000 feet.

We hiked in over the Tooth - awesome views on the approach and at the =
summit. Stopped at Tooth Camp for a heartfelt team reflection lead by =
Sam, our Chaplain's Aide. The final five miles into basecamp were very
=
long and ironically both dry and wet. We had very little drinking =
water left from dry camp the night before.but we faced a sudden =
torrential thunderstorm all the way down the Tooth's twenty switchbacks
=
to basecamp.

Our Eagle Scouts lived up to their Eagle Charges and provided a great =
team effort. Special thanks to Keith (Crew Chief), Ellery (Deputy), =
Sam (Chaplain's Aide), and Ryan (Quartermaster.) The crew equally shared
=
the workload. No one squabbled with the Duty Roster and everyone =
pitched in whenever extra measures were needed. The four Advisors were
=
on vacation - and having that many adults gave us additional =
flexibility, even after we lost one to injury.

Itinerary 11 with side hikes was perfect for us. Anyone experiencing =
that, route past or future, feel free to email me for further details or
=
shared experiences. Echoing the Rangers' cheer, we're all definitely =
coming "back to Philmont!" in 2006.

Jim Krempel
Advisor, 710H '04 (720F '06)
Venture Crew 1672, Severn, MD
EwokScout@comcast.net=20

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Trebuchet MS" size=3D2>Steve:  Here's an old =
post: my=20
Advisor's Log from Trek 11 in '04.  Hope this helps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2004 Philmont Trek 11 Advisor=92s =
Notes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here=92s one Advisor=92s summary of a =
fantastic first=20
Philmont expedition, 10-21 July 2004.  Crew 710H, coastal dwellers
=
from=20
Anne Arundel County, just south of Baltimore, Maryland, hiked in very =
visible=20
blaze orange t-shirts.  Since we were all Arrowmen, we took the =
Lenni=20
Lenape name of Newo Sipo Pemsit (Four Rivers Walkers) in honor of the OA
=
and our=20
home Scouting District.  Our crew cheer of =93BAM =96 ORANGE !=94 =
echoed over=20
many a precipice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Crew selected Itinerary 11, a =
beautiful 57-mile=20
trek through the South and Central Country, with exactly the programs =
everyone=20
wanted.  As an older crew of almost all Eagle Scouts, we kicked it
=
up a=20
notch to about 65 miles with side hikes (one Advisor and the fastest =
hikers=20
racked up over 80 miles with side hikes.)  The unusual rain levels
=
this=20
Summer made everything below 11,000 feet lush and green.  We found
=
watering=20
points everywhere, though the early rains most afternoons got a
little=20
irritating (along with legions of skeeters at some camps, especially =
Wild=20
Horse.)  Wet as it was, we were kind of surprised that we weren=92t
=
offered a=20
shower till day nine at =91Cito.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I=92d like to put in a quick plug for =
Blue Sky=20
Adventures (</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.blueskyadventures.net"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>www.blueskyadventures.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>) out of=20
South Florida.  Run by Mike Pardue, a long-time Scoutmaster, they =
provided=20
an action packed two-day tour to acclimatize us to the high =
altitude.  We=20
toured Albuquerque, Sandia Peak Tram, Bandelier National Monument, and =
went=20
whitewater kayaking on the Rio Grande.  All fees, hotel costs and =
meals=20
were covered, including friendly, knowledgeable guides and drivers =
to/from=20
Philmont.  This was a mini-vacation before our Philmont expedition,
=
worth=20
every penney=85and the Advisors didn=92t have to do anything but enjoy =
it!=20
<BR> <BR>Camping HQ (basecamp) processing was very well organized =
and=20
painless in both directions.  Our Ranger was Kevin Clegg, a fine =
Eagle=20
Scout from upstate Michigan.  He was just the right blend of =
trailwise,=20
self-assured, and easy going: the perfect fit for our crew.  The =
trailbound=20
campfire was subdued and rather serious.  In contrast, the =
homebound=20
campfire was rowdy, fun, and ultimately very touching as we sang the =
Philmont=20
Hymn and truly understood what it meant.  The highlight was =
personally=20
getting to salute my own son, Keith, at the campfire for a tough =
job done=20
well as our Crew Chief.  An eight year father-son dream come=20
true. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ranger Training was on the Rayado River
=
(with a=20
quick side hike to Abreau for the =93cantina=94 and goat milking). 
=
Our second=20
day was moved from Lookout Meadow to the new trail camp at Carson =
Meadow. =20
Absolutely beautiful, with Kevin sharing some special side hikes to =
nearby high=20
points. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Food was plentiful and commissary =
re-supplies timed=20
about right.  Hoofing a fresh load of meals for 12 souls from PJ up
=
to Wild=20
Horse and over Phillips was something we probably could have done=20
without.  "Cracker Mania" is under control but Tropical Gorp =
seems to=20
be the common favorite now.  The dehydrated stuff gets bland:=20
 Tabasco, Lawry's seasoned salt, and garlic salt really=20
helped.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Staffers everywhere were helpful, =
upbeat, and good=20
with the crew.  Everyone unanimously picked as their favorite =
program sites=20
Cyphers Mine, Apache Springs, and Clear Creek, in that order.  =
Cyphers=20
included the forge, a mine tour with =93Muck Out=94 (you have to try it)
=
and the=20
famous =93Stomp=94 live mountain music review.  Andrew, one of our
=
more=20
outgoing Crewmembers, won the nightly Cyphers Porch Tough Man Contest by
=
eating=20
11 pilot biscuits in two minutes!  We slept together as a crew in a
=
large=20
Adirondack called a =93mucker=92s shack.=94  Surprisingly good =
sleep in the crisp=20
mountain air. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There were bear alerts at several =
places=20
(especially Clark=92s Fork), but we didn=92t see one.  While we =
never saw it,=20
at one point near Crooked Creek Camp we did notice the distinctive smell
=
of cat=20
urine and heard a low growl from the rocks.  Probably a cougar =
marking it=92s=20
territory and defending a kill.  Golden ground squirrels =
(mini-bears) were=20
everywhere, especially at Apache Springs and Cyphers Mine, some almost =
tame=20
enough to feed by hand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our year-long preparation had three =
parts: =20
physical, gear/organization, and psychological.  The many shakedown
=
hikes=20
on the AT built the crew into a team, the developed mental toughness let
=
us dig=20
deep when we needed to.  Facing a raging hailstorm with a thirty =
degree=20
temperature drop and lightning strikes as we peaked Mount Phillips =
indeed put us=20
to the test.  The preparation paid off:  no one was hurt or=20
hypothermic, the guys responded like pros, and we camped as=20
brothers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We lost one advisor to injuries early =
on the fourth=20
day.  Nothing serious, but too painful to continue.  A =
Wilderness=20
First Aid course, along with Gold Bond, Ace Bandages, and Ibuprofen saw
=
us=20
through our medical needs.  Slight altitude sickness above 10.5 K =
feet for=20
a couple of crew members - quickly taken care of with Tylenol, plenty of
=
water,=20
and some rest - air is pretty thin at 11,000 feet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We hiked in over the Tooth =96 awesome
=
views on the=20
approach and at the summit.  Stopped at Tooth Camp for a heartfelt
=
team=20
reflection lead by Sam, our Chaplain=92s Aide.  The final five =
miles into=20
basecamp were very long and ironically both dry and wet.   We
=
had very=20
little drinking water left from dry camp the night before=85but we faced
=
a sudden=20
torrential thunderstorm all the way down the Tooth=92s twenty =
switchbacks to=20
basecamp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our Eagle Scouts lived up to their =
Eagle Charges=20
and provided a great team effort.  Special thanks to Keith (Crew=20
Chief),  Ellery (Deputy), Sam (Chaplain=92s Aide), and Ryan =
(Quartermaster.)=20
The crew equally shared the workload.  No one squabbled with the =
Duty=20
Roster and everyone pitched in whenever extra measures were =
needed.  The=20
four Advisors were on vacation =96 and having that many adults gave us =
additional=20
flexibility, even after we lost one to injury.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Itinerary 11 with side hikes was =
perfect for=20
us.  Anyone experiencing that, route past or future, feel free
=
to=20
email me for further details or shared experiences.  Echoing the =
Rangers=92=20
cheer, we=92re all definitely coming =93back to Philmont!=94 in =
2006.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jim Krempel<BR>Advisor, 710H =
'04  (720F=20
'06)<BR>Venture Crew 1672, Severn, MD<BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:EwokScout@comcast.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>EwokScout@comcast.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
<BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
face=3D"Trebuchet MS" =
size=3D2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C53A2D.E02222C0--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:20:34 -0500
From: "R Fisher" <ghotier@texas.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?

Sorry Jack but I couldn't resist.

> [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of Jack Bolinger
> Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles?
>
> The chances of coming up on deer or other wildlife to
> see with that racket going on is close to nil. Like smokers,
> those who use them tend to adapt to this noise and forget
> about the imposition on other hikers.

Let's not forget we are talking about hiking with a group of 10 or so
teenagers. You probably won't be able to hear the "click and clack" for
all the other sounds. The sloshing of the Nalgene bottles on the
outside of the packs and the swearing when the "lid keeper" breaks is
enough to drown out the noise from the trekking poles. As for deer, you
could drive a Mac truck over most of the trails and not scare off the
deer at Philmont. They didn't seem too bothered by the Chaplain's
suburban anyway. Ditto most of the other wildlife with the possible
exceptions of bears and mountain lions, and if the noise of the crew
didn't scare those away, you could have a much more serious problem than
the noise from several sets of hiking poles.

I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the incipient crunching
caused by boots when worn on gravel or loose rock - Soooo irritating.
Again - Sorry Jack, I couldn't help myself.

Happy Trails,

Roy Fisher

PS Yes, I do use trekking poles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:23:51 -0400
From: "Joseph Jansen" <jajansenjr@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles

A Google search for ["trekking pole" "connectors"] turns up a number of
links that may be useful.
Likely, though, a local hardware "superstore" may be able to come up
with a
solution which would allow you to join two treking poles for use with a
rainfly at less cost than something from a specialty camping house.
There
are two approaches that I can see. A plastic "plug" that would fit into
the
two ends of trekking poles which have a hollow interior. Or, a plastic
"sleeve" which would fit on the outside of the two ends. There is the
old
fashioned Scouting approach too - use cordage to lash the trekking poles

together. :-)

Joe Jansen
JAJansenJr@gmail.com
http://www.customprograms.info/scoutingresources.htm
I used to be an Owl. SC-70-15

>From: "Donald S. Roberts" <donald@hummellawfirm.com>
>Reply-To: philmont@troop47.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list philmont <philmont@troop47.com>
>Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Trekking Poles
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:40:55 -0700
>
> > From: James L. Kramer
> > I highly recommend trekking poles.
> >
>I use trekking poles. Won't leave home without them. Had torn
meniscus
>(sp) on knee and artho, and the poles kept me going, probably would
have
>prevented the tear (happened on a backpack using only one pole, other
given
>to a scout to use).
>
>A few observations:
>Useless for youth, except for the exceptional. They don't use them
>effectively, still resilient enough they don't need them anyway, and
they
>can get themselves in a lot of trouble with them.
>
>Very helpful when carrying a heavier pack than usual (week long for me
is
>32
>pounds) - dry camp extra water, right after food pickup and no meals
eaten
>yet. Really takes the load off the knees, very noticeable.
>
>Most helpful down hill. Help keep the ankles and knees from objecting.
>
>Not seeing much benefit to the shock absorbing type, jury is still out.
>
>Trails around here do not lend themselves well to adjusting the length
>uphill vs. downhill, change too much, so I've seen little value trying
to
>do
>that (I have tried) I suppose if you can be assured a steady uphill or
>downhill, then maybe. However, I hiked the Grand canyon twice, and saw
>little benefit adjusting up vs. down lengths. Tried it both ways.
>
>Frequent adjustments tend to lead to more frequent collapsed poles.
Very
>annoying, but not serious. Screw fittings seem to hold up better than
>lever
>fittings in that regard (counter-intuitive to me).
>
>Cork grips more abrasive than plastic, not much advantage for
sweatiness,
>so
>haven't seen the point of extra cost of cork grips (I've used both).
>
>Once your hands get dirty, it is a PITA to clean the grips and hands
and
>keep them that way without an extended time for them to dry out
(especially
>cork grips). Dipping the hands in a stream to pump water, slipping and
>getting dirt on them, etc.
>
>The clack-clack without rubber tips is noticeable, but I don't think it
is
>more noisy than the creaking packs of the external frame folks. If we
want
>quiet, get rid of the external frame packs. Can't really understand
why
>people still use them anyway :-)
>
>The vast majority of people with poles haven't got a clue how to use
them.
>They set them the wrong length (usually too long), they don't use them
to
>get support (just swing and set them randomly instead), don't use the
>straps
>correctly, and so get none of the advantages. I've rarely seen someone
who
>uses them right say they don't like them. I've rarely seen someone
who
>uses them wrong say they help.
>
>There are several makers of connectors that allow you to hook your two
>poles
>tip to tip to make them into one long pole for a dining fly. Anyone
got a
>link they can share?
>
>Regards
>Don Roberts
>Philtrek 05 808-K Itinerary 2
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
>Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
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>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of philmont Digest V01 #1327
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Received on Wed Apr 6 11:10:20 2005

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RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1327