[philmont] Advisors learning curve

Our pumps stay in our stoves and we have to refill the stoves from storage bottles... shall I say that I am one step better because I don't choose to use the fancy new stoves that conveniently uses the storage bottle as the resevoir?? My scouts have to learn how to properly fill the stove from the bottle using a filter-funnel and take care of not only the fuel bottle to make sure it doesn't leak but also a separate stove with a resevoir attached!

I've seen the arguments both ways on this list for the last 5 years, where does it stop? Sure, polypropylene clothing and synthetic fiber filled sleeping bags are much more convenient than cotton, wool and down, you just have to be more careful not to let the others get wet. Yucca packs and with wooden frames (or no frame at all) aren't as nice as a nice modern internal frame pack with light aluminum stays or >GASP< perhaps even a composite stay, but then you don't learn how to pack a sleeping bag on the outside of the pack in a way to keep it dry and use a diamond hitch to strap things to the back.... and shouldn't we all opt for ponchos and gaiters instead of any of these new convenient 'rain suits' made from fancy tyvek or even more horribly, GORTEX!!. Some people opt for cannister stoves for what ever reason, some may use them because it is what they already have available.

I believe the question asked originally had to do with availability of the fuel canisters at the ranch and in the back country as well as disposal of the spent canisters. There was no plea for a moral debate on which type of stove was most appropriate. I would have to say as long as a crew using canister fuel stoves doesn't leave the spent canisters on the trail or abaondoned at base camp in an inappropriate fashion, then they have left no trace. I helped our crew compact our trash from each meal into any number of containers, usually ending up with 1 cracker or cereal box with most of a day's trash in it, but try as we may, we just couldn't compress it quite hard enough to make it disappear.... I guess we should have carried those compacted little wads we turned in at our food pickups home with us to dispose instead of troubling the staff with it. (The staff was always thrilled to get our trash and usually rewarded our crew with goodies, apparently there are many slovenly
 crews out there that don't even try to compact their trash.)

Crew 618-E2 will be carrying 2 Peak 1 Multi-fuel stoves and fueling them with white gas purchased on site. We will be travelling by train so we will clean and air out our stoves and fuel bottles during our last day of the trek (if we're lucky like we were in 2003, we will meet up with a crew on the trail to give our surplus fuel to so the bottle can air out on the trail.) I will also be bringing along a JetBoil for advisor's morning coffee or hot cider or hot chocolate at our leisure and fancy. If I carry the JetBoil the entire trek without using it, I will be no worse off than 2003 when I carried a 35mm SLR camera and 2 zoom lenses (only 1 of which was used) which I have now converted to digital at about 10% the weight. I will pack my canister(s) in and out of the ranch full and/or empty.

I can understand the fundamental differences in training/use theory behind the canister stoves vs. the liquid fuel stoves. I also understand that in many BSA events (scout camps/reservations and National Jamboree to name 2) liquid fuels are prohibited so many units opt for Propane or canister fueled stoves. No moral, ethical or LNT ethics involved there, just the rules. It seems that they push for us NOT to use the liquid fuel stoves but then morally we're supposed to...... But then, Philmont stocks the canisters both at base camp and in the back country, right?? I would think if they were a problem, the 'disposable' canisters would be banned on the ranch wouldn't they?

Just a few thoughts from an obviously less than fundamentally moral, part time fuel canister user.

Kevin Mineart
Lead Advisor 618-E2
MVC Contingent Crew
West Burlington, IA Troop 214

----- Original Message ----
From: Pete Swiggum <peter.swiggum@sbcglobal.net>
To: philmont List Member <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:40:02 PM
Subject: [philmont] Advisors learning curve

Jim,
When I read the post below about canister fuels being favored over re-fillable fuel bottles (white gas), I had many of the same thoughts. However, you took the time to put into words the position that I would have taken had I chosen to write. And, you did it far better than I would have.
 
I agree 100% and can't add anything more.
 
Pete Swiggum
Green Bay, WI
Philmont 2005
 

Jim Moss <bsa.rec.law@gmail.com> wrote:
The first part many of you have probably heard before........

1. Don't take the pumps out of the bottles. You save weight by caring
the pumps inside the bottles and you can leave the lids at home. You only
need lids for the bottles without pumps. Keeps the pumps in the fuel
bottles cuts down on fuel spills when you are taking lids off and putting
the pumps in and you do not have to let off the excess pressure when you are
done cooking. This is where most stove fires occur.

2. This also protects the pumps form wear and tear and breaking. No
better protection then inside the bottle.

3. Carry your stoves and fuel in a separate bag on the outside of your
pack. Every pack manufacture makes them and you can find one that will fit
your set up. You can find one that will fit every set up no matter what pack
your are carrying. That way you know where you stove is and any spill is
fairly contained outside of the bag. I have a heavy cordura bag that holds
the fuel bottle/pump and my stove on the outside of the pack. If I am
worried about protecting the stove I put it in a small OR padded box inside
the bag on the outside of my pack.

4. Only transport fuel bottles upright. Stoves really don't matter.

The second part.

I find your reasoning for using non-reusable fuel canisters to be weak and
best and short sighted. I find it to be very un-Scout like in its approach
to teaching future generations responsibility.

Of course a youth is going to leave the cap off or allow the fuel to leak
out. Of course that is going to happen. We are dealing with youth. You are
going to deny this youth the learning opportunity and the unit the
opportunity to be creative.

More importantly you are saying is that the earth and the future of those
youth is less important than your desire to have it easy at Philmont.
Yesterday five conservative, very right wing supreme court justices even
said the earth is in trouble and we need to watch global warming.

Recycling is good, but reusing is better. It takes minimal energy to refill
a fuel bottle. It takes energy that warms the earth to recycle a spent fuel
canister.

I seriously doubt, that anyone who is going to argue for fuel canisters is
going to recycle them anyway. You are going to pitch them at Philmont and
leave for Philmont to deal with.

I wish I had John's grace in responding, but as many of you know, there are
some things that send me to the roof and choosing to be lazy or cheap in
deference to cleaning up the earth is one of them. Choosing to teach
impressionable youth the wrong way, when they are looking at you for
guidance, to help them set the groundwork for the future by choosing the
easy way over the right way is not Scout like.

Jim Moss

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont@troop47.com [mailto:philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of
vowelldk1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:25 PM
To: philmont List Member
Subject: [philmont] Advisors learning curve

That's one view. Another is a careless scout (and I don't care how much you
train them; human beings make mistakes) who fails to tighten the cap on the
fuel canister. A ruined pack, soaked clothes, and an environmental problem.

I opt for the canisters. It IS possible to mail them home and recycle them
there. UPS ground can take propane/butane.

Denise Vowell
VC 574
04 & 08 (if the knees hold up)

 
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Received on Tue Apr 3 23:47:04 2007