You should read the definition of Leave No Trace. (www.lnt.org) At best
your definition is correct only on the surface but is has no substance. On
top of that, you are not solving the problem, you are creating a problem
when you create trash rather than reuse.
I've been working on Philmont and will continue to work on Philmont.
Philmont's argument is the canister stoves are out there and people complain
about buying new stoves.
Maybe we should educate more and complain less. Maybe we should lead more
and follow less.
Just because Philmont does it or allows it does not mean it is the best way,
the only way, or the right way.
Example: I work for a commercial river company in the grand canyon. Sixteen
days worth of trash and human fecal matter. Yes we carry everything out,
including the S@#t. We sort all trash into what is recyclable and what is
not. So from day one, my boat (yes my boat) has bags of aluminum, steel,
trash and s@#t on it. ( I sleep on that boat at night. By night 15 it can
be interesting if I have not done a good job.) But I sleep knowing that I am
doing the right thing. On top of that all sixteen days worth of food is
organic.
So Philmont could do a better job. It took Philmont thirty years to realize
that iodine was not the best way to purify water and then Philmont caught up
and things are better. (My friends in the outdoor industry laugh when we say
if we continue to work hard we can get the Boy Scouts into the 1980's.).
Philmont is moving forward, we can push and complain or we can lead. We are
supposed to develop leaders in our youth and the best way to develop great
leaders is to be one. A great leader does the right thing, not the easy
thing.
Using something that can be recycled rather than reused is one reason why
the BSA does not have the support it should. The BSA (and Philmont) walk a
line of educating men and women who are willing to give up a couple (I know
that is a joke) of hours a week to work with youth. Some will do a better
job. Some are willing to take their vacation and take those youth to
Philmont. that is a big commitment and I applaud each and every one of you.
The BSA and Philmont walk a line to continue that tradition.
But that does not mean that I/we should not do better, should not shove
harder, should not do the best thing for the youth and the right thing. If
you are willing to do it, then try and do it right.
Jim
_____
From: philmont@troop47.com [mailto:philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Mineart
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:42 PM
To: philmont List Member
Subject: [philmont] Advisors learning curve
Our pumps stay in our stoves and we have to refill the stoves from storage
bottles... shall I say that I am one step better because I don't choose to
use the fancy new stoves that conveniently uses the storage bottle as the
resevoir?? My scouts have to learn how to properly fill the stove from the
bottle using a filter-funnel and take care of not only the fuel bottle to
make sure it doesn't leak but also a separate stove with a resevoir
attached!
I've seen the arguments both ways on this list for the last 5 years, where
does it stop? Sure, polypropylene clothing and synthetic fiber filled
sleeping bags are much more convenient than cotton, wool and down, you just
have to be more careful not to let the others get wet. Yucca packs and with
wooden frames (or no frame at all) aren't as nice as a nice modern internal
frame pack with light aluminum stays or >GASP< perhaps even a composite
stay, but then you don't learn how to pack a sleeping bag on the outside of
the pack in a way to keep it dry and use a diamond hitch to strap things to
the back.... and shouldn't we all opt for ponchos and gaiters instead of any
of these new convenient 'rain suits' made from fancy tyvek or even more
horribly, GORTEX!!. Some people opt for cannister stoves for what ever
reason, some may use them because it is what they already have available.
I believe the question asked originally had to do with availability of the
fuel canisters at the ranch and in the back country as well as disposal of
the spent canisters. There was no plea for a moral debate on which type of
stove was most appropriate. I would have to say as long as a crew using
canister fuel stoves doesn't leave the spent canisters on the trail or
abaondoned at base camp in an inappropriate fashion, then they have left no
trace. I helped our crew compact our trash from each meal into any number of
containers, usually ending up with 1 cracker or cereal box with most of a
day's trash in it, but try as we may, we just couldn't compress it quite
hard enough to make it disappear.... I guess we should have carried those
compacted little wads we turned in at our food pickups home with us to
dispose instead of troubling the staff with it. (The staff was always
thrilled to get our trash and usually rewarded our crew with goodies,
apparently there are many slovenly crews out there that don't even try to
compact their trash.)
Crew 618-E2 will be carrying 2 Peak 1 Multi-fuel stoves and fueling them
with white gas purchased on site. We will be travelling by train so we will
clean and air out our stoves and fuel bottles during our last day of the
trek (if we're lucky like we were in 2003, we will meet up with a crew on
the trail to give our surplus fuel to so the bottle can air out on the
trail.) I will also be bringing along a JetBoil for advisor's morning coffee
or hot cider or hot chocolate at our leisure and fancy. If I carry the
JetBoil the entire trek without using it, I will be no worse off than 2003
when I carried a 35mm SLR camera and 2 zoom lenses (only 1 of which was
used) which I have now converted to digital at about 10% the weight. I will
pack my canister(s) in and out of the ranch full and/or empty.
I can understand the fundamental differences in training/use theory behind
the canister stoves vs. the liquid fuel stoves. I also understand that in
many BSA events (scout camps/reservations and National Jamboree to name 2)
liquid fuels are prohibited so many units opt for Propane or canister fueled
stoves. No moral, ethical or LNT ethics involved there, just the rules. It
seems that they push for us NOT to use the liquid fuel stoves but then
morally we're supposed to...... But then, Philmont stocks the canisters both
at base camp and in the back country, right?? I would think if they were a
problem, the 'disposable' canisters would be banned on the ranch wouldn't
they?
Just a few thoughts from an obviously less than fundamentally moral, part
time fuel canister user.
Kevin Mineart
Lead Advisor 618-E2
MVC Contingent Crew
West Burlington, IA Troop 214
----- Original Message ----
From: Pete Swiggum <peter.swiggum@sbcglobal.net>
To: philmont List Member <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:40:02 PM
Subject: [philmont] Advisors learning curve
Jim,
When I read the post below about canister fuels being favored over
re-fillable fuel bottles (white gas), I had many of the same thoughts.
However, you took the time to put into words the position that I would have
taken had I chosen to write. And, you did it far better than I would have.
I agree 100% and can't add anything more.
Pete Swiggum
Green Bay, WI
Philmont 2005
Jim Moss <bsa.rec.law@gmail.com> wrote:
The first part many of you have probably heard before........
1. Don't take the pumps out of the bottles. You save weight by caring
the pumps inside the bottles and you can leave the lids at home. You only
need lids for the bottles without pumps. Keeps the pumps in the fuel
bottles cuts down on fuel spills when you are taking lids off and putting
the pumps in and you do not have to let off the excess pressure when you are
done cooking. This is where most stove fires occur.
2. This also protects the pumps form wear and tear and breaking. No
better protection then inside the bottle.
3. Carry your stoves and fuel in a separate bag on the outside of your
pack. Every pack manufacture makes them and you can find one that will fit
your set up. You can find one that will fit every set up no matter what pack
your are carrying. That way you know where you stove is and any spill is
fairly contained outside of the bag. I have a heavy cordura bag that holds
the fuel bottle/pump and my stove on the outside of the pack. If I am
worried about protecting the stove I put it in a small OR padded box inside
the bag on the outside of my pack.
4. Only transport fuel bottles upright. Stoves really don't matter.
The second part.
I find your reasoning for using non-reusable fuel canisters to be weak and
best and short sighted. I find it to be very un-Scout like in its approach
to teaching future generations responsibility.
Of course a youth is going to leave the cap off or allow the fuel to leak
out. Of course that is going to happen. We are dealing with youth. You are
going to deny this youth the learning opportunity and the unit the
opportunity to be creative.
More importantly you are saying is that the earth and the future of those
youth is less important than your desire to have it easy at Philmont.
Yesterday five conservative, very right wing supreme court justices even
said the earth is in trouble and we need to watch global warming.
Recycling is good, but reusing is better. It takes minimal energy to refill
a fuel bottle. It takes energy that warms the earth to recycle a spent fuel
canister.
I seriously doubt, that anyone who is going to argue for fuel canisters is
going to recycle them anyway. You are going to pitch them at Philmont and
leave for Philmont to deal with.
I wish I had John's grace in responding, but as many of you know, there are
some things that send me to the roof and choosing to be lazy or cheap in
deference to cleaning up the earth is one of them. Choosing to teach
impressionable youth the wrong way, when they are looking at you for
guidance, to help them set the groundwork for the future by choosing the
easy way over the right way is not Scout like.
Jim Moss
-----Original Message-----
From: philmont@troop47.com [mailto:philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of
vowelldk1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:25 PM
To: philmont List Member
Subject: [philmont] Advisors learning curve
That's one view. Another is a careless scout (and I don't care how much you
train them; human beings make mistakes) who fails to tighten the cap on the
fuel canister. A ruined pack, soaked clothes, and an environmental problem.
I opt for the canisters. It IS possible to mail them home and recycle them
there. UPS ground can take propane/butane.
Denise Vowell
VC 574
04 & 08 (if the knees hold up)
_____
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loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
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Received on Wed Apr 4 00:47:07 2007
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