The Phil-list Aug_2004: RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest

From: Dave Parmly <PARMLYD@pilottravelcenters.com>
Date: Wed Aug 11 2004 - 06:59:48 CDT

In Army Ranger School, we had a saying: There are 4 certain key
PRINCIPLES that your unit must adhere to at all times. Everything else
you do on a mission is a TECHNIQUE. Violate a Principle and you will
get a No-Go, no matter how small a violation it is. Screw up a
Technique (anything NOT a principle) and you can still get a Go. What
the 4 principles are is not important on this forum, but the idea is the
same. Caterpillaring is a TECHNIQUE; Not a PRINCIPLE.

"Keeping the group together in the backcountry" is an example of a
PRINCIPLE. You never violate it, it is needed for safety reasons and to
violate it endangers the lives of a lot of people.

"Caterpillaring" is a TECHNIQUE. If your group needs to caterpillar to
hold to the Philmont/Common Sense Principle of "Group integrity at all
times", then use it. If you don't, then don't. It smacks of macho
chest-thumping to snort, "Who needs the caterpillar? We streak up
hills." I say "That's great. You track stars have a nice Philmont
day." Each crew is so unique it's virtually impossible to apply a
technique that will fit all of their needs/capabilities. My crew was
the youngest that our ranger had ever taken out (13-15), and while they
are experienced backpackers, proven capabilities of 15-20 mile days on
the Appalachian Trail, their disparate athletic abilities showed up
every time we hit steep hills. So we used the Cat a lot. That's us,
that's our technique. Our soccer star crew leader applied the technique
of caterpillaring even though he didn't need it so we could maintain the
principle of staying together as a group, advisors included.

My encouragement to all on this forum is to simply know your crew's
capabilities and personality and have a trek that reflects that
uniqueness they have as a group. Keep backcountry principles adhered
to at all times. Everything else is just a technique.

IWTGBTP!

Dave Parmly
Advisor, Venture Crew 506
Knoxville, TN

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont-request@troop47.com [mailto:philmont-request@troop47.com]

Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:04 AM
To: Philmont
Subject: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1083

philmont Digest Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:03:36 -0500 V01 #1083

Today's topics:

'=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[Philmont]:=A0=20Philmont=20Fee=20Schedules?='
     'caterpiller'
     'RE: [Philmont]: caterpillar'
     'RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller'
     'RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller'
     'RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller'
     'RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Catapiller - small group'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:11:53 EDT
From: DanrMoser@aol.com
Subject:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[Philmont]:=A0=20Philmont=20Fee=20Schedules?=

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In a message dated 8/10/04 6:41:54 AM, drbob@troop111.org writes:

> The maximum flexibility is usually when you are
> travelling as a group, when everyone has the exact same travel plans
> (that is, that the group stays as a group start to finish), and when
> no-one has used frequent flyer miles.=A0 The airlines are usually most
> flexible when dealing with groups.
>=20
It also helps to have a trusted and reliable travel agent make
arrangements=20
for us. In a couple cases where flexibilty was needed it helped to have
some=
one=20
who knew who and how to ask for special conditions. I know some people
would=
=20
rather not use agents but I find the fees worth it if there is a problem
to=20=
be=20
resolved.
Yours in Scouts
Dan Moser
Scoutmaster Troop 377
Stony Creek Mills PA

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"
FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
In a message dated 8/10/04 6:41:54 AM, drbob@troop111.org writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT
COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">The maximum
flexibili=
ty is usually when you are<BR>
travelling as a group, when everyone has the exact same travel plans<BR>
(that is, that the group stays as a group start to finish), and when<BR>
no-one has used frequent flyer miles.=A0 The airlines are usually
most<BR>
flexible when dealing with groups.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva"
FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
It also helps to have a trusted and reliable travel agent make
arrangements=20=
for us. In a couple cases where flexibilty was needed it helped to have
some=
one who knew who and how to ask for special conditions. I know some
people w=
ould rather not use agents but I find the fees worth it if there is a
proble=
m to be resolved.<BR>
Yours in Scouts<BR>
Dan Moser<BR>
Scoutmaster Troop 377<BR>
Stony Creek Mills PA<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
SIZE=3D"=
2"></FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:27:01 -0400
From: "Jackson Morris" <jmorris8@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: caterpiller

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i guess i am a little confused. i and my crew are from florida, so i =
guess it is to be expected. i had read about caterpillaring for several
=
years, but always figured it was an old technique for the old trails now
=
filled in with brush and not the new ones at about 7 percent grade. i =
had never actually seen it done, after 2 treks. this year, we passed a
=
crew between aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar (as we =
returned to cito from a resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 =
hours round trip), but the crew advisers were really old (older than my
=
60 years) so i figured they were entitled. my florida crews have always
=
streaked up and down the hills. i and at least one other crew adviser =
are usually a little slower, but not so slow as to be very far behind.
=
so what's the need to caterpillar with the new trails? maybe up the west
=
side of phillips or over black mountain, but otherwise i don't see the =
need. is everyone doing it everywhere anyway? or is it really =
uncommon? jackson morris, contingent leader, 608-k, gulf ridge council,
=
florida
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>i guess i am a little confused.  i and my =
crew are=20
from florida, so i guess it is to be expected.  i had read about=20
caterpillaring for several years, but always figured it was an old =
technique for=20
the old trails now filled in with brush and not the new ones at about 7
=
percent=20
grade.  i had never actually seen it done, after 2 treks.  =
this year,=20
we passed a crew between aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar =
(as we=20
returned to cito from a resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 =
hours=20
round trip), but the crew advisers were really old (older than my 60 =
years) so i=20
figured they were entitled.  my florida crews have always streaked
=
up and=20
down the hills.  i and at least one other crew adviser are usually
=
a little=20
slower, but not so slow as to be very far behind.  so what's the =
need to=20
caterpillar with the new trails? maybe up the west side of phillips or =
over=20
black mountain, but otherwise i don't see the need.  is everyone =
doing it=20
everywhere anyway?  or is it really uncommon?  jackson morris,
=

contingent leader, 608-k, gulf ridge council, =
florida</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:34:22 -0400
From: "Phil Brown" <phil@eisnc.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: caterpillar

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If your crew is all strong hikers, there may be little need. We did not
use
it in 2003, but in 2001 it worked great for us. It was getting late, we
had
a long day with a very tired crew and used it on the steep parts of the
trail from Baldy to Copper Park. It really picked up the crew and got
us
moving. I plan to teach it to our crew for 2005. This will be a co-ed
crew
and we have a number of smaller crew members and a lot of variation in
experience and ability. I see the caterpillar as a good technique to
have
in your bag of tricks if and when the need arises.

Phil Brown

_____

From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Jackson Morris
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:27 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: caterpiller

i guess i am a little confused. i and my crew are from florida, so i
guess
it is to be expected. i had read about caterpillaring for several
years,
but always figured it was an old technique for the old trails now filled
in
with brush and not the new ones at about 7 percent grade. i had never
actually seen it done, after 2 treks. this year, we passed a crew
between
aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar (as we returned to cito
from a
resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 hours round trip), but the
crew advisers were really old (older than my 60 years) so i figured they
were entitled. my florida crews have always streaked up and down the
hills.
i and at least one other crew adviser are usually a little slower, but
not
so slow as to be very far behind. so what's the need to caterpillar
with
the new trails? maybe up the west side of phillips or over black
mountain,
but otherwise i don't see the need. is everyone doing it everywhere
anyway?
or is it really uncommon? jackson morris, contingent leader, 608-k,
gulf
ridge council, florida

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If your crew is all strong hikers,
=
there may
be little need. <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>We did not
=
use it
in 2003, but in 2001 it worked great for us. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>It was getting <span =
class=3DGramE>late,</span>
we had a long day with a very tired crew and used it on the steep parts
=
of the
trail from Baldy to <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Copper</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">Park</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>It really picked up the crew and
=
got us
moving.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>I plan to teach it
=
to our
crew for 2005. <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>This will =
be a co-ed
crew and we have a number of smaller crew members and a lot of variation
=
in
experience and ability. <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I
=
see the caterpillar
as a good technique to have in your bag of tricks if and when the need =
arises.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Phil =
Brown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
owner-<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">philmont@troop47.com</st1:PersonName> =
[mailto:owner-<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">philmont@troop47.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jackson Morris<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, August 10,
=
2004
6:27 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients =
of list
philmont<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Philmont]: =
caterpiller</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>i guess i am a little confused.  i and my crew =
are from
<st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">florida</st1:place></st1:State>, so i
guess it is to be expected.  i had read about caterpillaring for =
several
years, but always figured it was an old technique for the old trails now
=
filled
in with brush and not the new ones at about 7 percent grade.  i had
=
never
actually seen it done, after 2 treks.  this year, we passed a crew
=
between
aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar (as we returned to cito =
from a
resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 hours round trip), but the
=
crew
advisers were really old (older than my 60 years) so i figured they were
entitled.  my <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">florida</st1:place></st1:State>
crews have always streaked up and down the hills.  i and at least =
one
other crew adviser are usually a little slower, but not so slow as to be
=
very
far behind.  so what's the need to caterpillar with the new trails?
=
maybe
up the west side of phillips or over black mountain, but otherwise i =
don't see
the need.  is everyone doing it everywhere anyway?  or is it =
really
uncommon?  <st1:City w:st=3D"on">jackson</st1:City> morris, =
contingent
leader, 608-k, gulf ridge council, <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">florida</st1:place></st1:State></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:50:13 -0500
From: "Bruce Bacon" <Bruce.Bacon@gtc.kiewit.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller

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Having just completed trek #11, the only time we used the caterpillar
was on
the trail up the west side of Mt. Phillips. This technique was
requested
when a 46 yr old female advisor couldn't maintain the quick pace set by
the
scouts and she begged the scouts to leave her behind, stating that she
would
proceed at her own pace. To our scouts credit, they refused to leave
and
the caterpillar was introduced and implemented. The scouts enjoyed this
technique, but would have only tolerated it for this steep grade. All
other
trails we encountered were hiked in normal single file.

Beware, if you use this technique and fall just a little behind to smell
the
roses, be prepared for comments like "Hey Mr. Advisor, what's taking so
long
on this nice flat trail? Do you need to caterpillar? ;> Have fun -
Bruce
Bacon, 718-D1
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]On
Behalf Of Jackson Morris
  Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 5:27 PM
  To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
  Subject: [Philmont]: caterpiller

i guess i am a little confused. i and my crew are from florida, so i
guess it is to be expected. i had read about caterpillaring for several
years, but always figured it was an old technique for the old trails now
filled in with brush and not the new ones at about 7 percent grade. i
had
never actually seen it done, after 2 treks. this year, we passed a crew
between aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar (as we returned to
cito
from a resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 hours round trip),
but
the crew advisers were really old (older than my 60 years) so i figured
they
were entitled. my florida crews have always streaked up and down the
hills.
i and at least one other crew adviser are usually a little slower, but
not
so slow as to be very far behind. so what's the need to caterpillar
with
the new trails? maybe up the west side of phillips or over black
mountain,
but otherwise i don't see the need. is everyone doing it everywhere
anyway?
or is it really uncommon? jackson morris, contingent leader, 608-k,
gulf
ridge council, florida

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D214173323-10082004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2>Having=20
just completed trek #11, the only time we used the caterpillar was on=20
the trail up the west side of Mt. Phillips.  This technique =
was=20
requested when a 46 yr old female advisor couldn't maintain the quick =
pace set=20
by the scouts and she begged the scouts to leave her behind, =
stating that=20
she would proceed at her own pace.  To our scouts credit, they =
refused to=20
leave and the caterpillar was introduced and implemented.  The =
scouts=20
enjoyed this technique, but would have only tolerated it for this
steep=20
grade.  All other trails we encountered were hiked in normal single
=

file.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D214173323-10082004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D214173323-10082004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=

size=3D2>Beware, if you use this technique and fall just a little =
behind to=20
smell the roses, be prepared for comments like "Hey Mr. =
Advisor,=20
what's taking so long on this nice flat trail?  Do you need to =
caterpillar?=20
;>   Have fun - Bruce Bacon, 718-D1</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-philmont@troop47.com=20
  [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jackson=20
  Morris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 10, 2004 5:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
=
Multiple=20
  recipients of list philmont<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Philmont]:=20
  caterpiller<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>i guess i am a little confused.  i and my
=
crew are=20
  from florida, so i guess it is to be expected.  i had read
about=20
  caterpillaring for several years, but always figured it was an old =
technique=20
  for the old trails now filled in with brush and not the new ones at =
about 7=20
  percent grade.  i had never actually seen it done, after 2 =
treks. =20
  this year, we passed a crew between aspen springs and cito doing
the=20
  caterpillar (as we returned to cito from a resupply at ute gulch in a
=
little=20
  more than 2 hours round trip), but the crew advisers were really old =
(older=20
  than my 60 years) so i figured they were entitled.  my florida =
crews have=20
  always streaked up and down the hills.  i and at least one other
=
crew=20
  adviser are usually a little slower, but not so slow as to be very far
=

  behind.  so what's the need to caterpillar with the new trails? =
maybe up=20
  the west side of phillips or over black mountain, but otherwise i =
don't see=20
  the need.  is everyone doing it everywhere anyway?  or is it
=
really=20
  uncommon?  jackson morris, contingent leader, 608-k, gulf ridge =
council,=20
  florida</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:55:59 -0400
From: "Ched Hudson" <chedhudson@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller

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When I first showed my crew the caterpillar early this spring, they
didn't
"get it" at first. The next day we tackled a long, steep trail and you
could
see the light bulbs come on. They embraced it as their own, and the crew
leader invoked it anytime anyone became winded and the group didn't want
to
stop. Although we don't have a tradition of backpacking in our troop
(yet),
these guys became proficient hikers when they were moving. (As soon as
they
stopped to rest all bets were off, but that's another story.) They also
used
it on the downhill stretches to regroup when they got spaced out along
the
trail. Not my preference, but it was their choice and it achieved the
desired goal - to hike together. (I'd growl at my crew leader anytime
the
line got too gappy, which wasn't often, and he was good about keeping
the
slower hikers up front.)

At Philmont it was interesting to see that as the trek wore on they
opted to
use the caterpillar less and less. The crew only used it the second half
of
the trek when we were ascending at higher elevations and everyone was
out of
breath. My co-advisor and I were able to keep up with the crew pretty
easily, but the caterpillar was still a welcome respite on some of those
climbs. By Day 12 we chugged up from Ponderosa Park to Schaefer's Peak
with
only two or three 30-second nav breaks and no caterpillar.

>Ched Hudson
ASM, Troop 994
Fairfax Station VA
Philmont 67, 04
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]On
Behalf Of Jackson Morris
  Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:27 PM
  To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
  Subject: [Philmont]: caterpiller

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D887453423-10082004><FONT face=3DGaramond =
color=3D#008000>When I=20
first showed my crew the caterpillar early this spring, they didn't "get
=
it" at=20
first. The next day we tackled a long, steep trail and you could see the
=
light=20
bulbs come on. They embraced it as their own, and the crew leader =
invoked it=20
anytime anyone became winded and the group didn't want to stop. Although
=
we=20
don't have a tradition of backpacking in our troop (yet), these guys =
became=20
proficient hikers when they were moving. (As soon as they stopped to =
rest all=20
bets were off, but that's another story.) They also used it on the =
downhill=20
stretches to regroup when they got spaced out along the trail. Not my=20
preference, but it was their choice and it achieved the desired goal - =
to hike=20
together. (I'd growl at my crew leader anytime the line got too gappy, =
which=20
wasn't often, and he was good about keeping the slower hikers up=20
front.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D887453423-10082004><FONT face=3DGaramond=20
color=3D#008000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D887453423-10082004><FONT face=3DGaramond =
color=3D#008000>At=20
Philmont it was interesting to see that as the trek wore on they opted =
to use=20
the caterpillar less and less. The crew only used it the second half of
=
the trek=20
when we were ascending at higher elevations and everyone was out of =
breath. My=20
co-advisor and I were able to keep up with the crew pretty easily, but =
the=20
caterpillar was still a welcome respite on some of those climbs. By Day
=
12 we=20
chugged up from Ponderosa Park to Schaefer's Peak with only two or three
=

30-second nav breaks and no caterpillar. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D887453423-10082004><BR><FONT face=3DGaramond=20
color=3D#008000></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D887453423-10082004><FONT face=3DGaramond =
color=3D#008000>>Ched=20
Hudson<BR>ASM, Troop 994</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DGaramond =
color=3D#008000>Fairfax=20
Station VA<BR>Philmont 67, 04</FONT> </DIV></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-philmont@troop47.com=20
  [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jackson=20
  Morris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
=
Multiple=20
  recipients of list philmont<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Philmont]:=20
  caterpiller<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>i guess i am a little confused.  i and my
=
crew are=20
  from florida, so i guess it is to be expected.  i had read
about=20
  caterpillaring for several years, but always figured it was an old =
technique=20
  for the old trails now filled in with brush and not the new ones at =
about 7=20
  percent grade.  i had never actually seen it done, after 2 =
treks. =20
  this year, we passed a crew between aspen springs and cito doing
the=20
  caterpillar (as we returned to cito from a resupply at ute gulch in a
=
little=20
  more than 2 hours round trip), but the crew advisers were really old =
(older=20
  than my 60 years) so i figured they were entitled.  my florida =
crews have=20
  always streaked up and down the hills.  i and at least one other
=
crew=20
  adviser are usually a little slower, but not so slow as to be very far
=

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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:09:12 -0500
From: "R Fisher" <ghotier@texas.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller

If for no other reason than it gives the crew a chance to see something
besides the backpack in front of them - either the other crew members as
they hike past or the scenery as they are waiting for the rest of the
crew to pass - it would probably be worth giving it a try. It's also a
good way to grab a drink without stopping the whole crew too.

Happy Trails

Roy Fisher

so what's the need to caterpillar with the new trails? maybe up the west
side of phillips or over black mountain, but otherwise i don't see the
need. is everyone doing it everywhere anyway? or is it really
uncommon? jackson morris, contingent leader, 608-k, gulf ridge council,
florida

PS Are you any kin to e e cummings by any chance <very big grin>?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:19:22 +0000
From: "Scott Sibley" <swsibley@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: caterpiller

I usually asked the hike leader to do a caterpillar every half hour. It
gave
us a chance to catch our breath, drink without splashing it down our
fronts.
It also gives a chance to see everyone's face. I called for a
caterpillar
soon after the hail storm when the temperature dropped because I wanted
to
make sure no one was getting hypothermia.

It is a good break, where no one is tempted to take their pack off and
turn
it into a long break.

On the back of Trail Peak, on the straight-up path, we did continuous
caterpillar. That was a SUCC - Straight Up Continuous C aterpillar.

Thanks,
Scott Sibley

>From: "Jackson Morris" <jmorris8@tampabay.rr.com>
>Reply-To: philmont@troop47.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list philmont <philmont@troop47.com>
>Subject: [Philmont]: caterpiller
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:27:01 -0400
>
>i guess i am a little confused. i and my crew are from florida, so i
guess
>it is to be expected. i had read about caterpillaring for several
years,
>but always figured it was an old technique for the old trails now
filled in
>with brush and not the new ones at about 7 percent grade. i had never
>actually seen it done, after 2 treks. this year, we passed a crew
between
>aspen springs and cito doing the caterpillar (as we returned to cito
from a
>resupply at ute gulch in a little more than 2 hours round trip), but
the
>crew advisers were really old (older than my 60 years) so i figured
they
>were entitled. my florida crews have always streaked up and down the
>hills. i and at least one other crew adviser are usually a little
slower,
>but not so slow as to be very far behind. so what's the need to
>caterpillar with the new trails? maybe up the west side of phillips or
over
>black mountain, but otherwise i don't see the need. is everyone doing
it
>everywhere anyway? or is it really uncommon? jackson morris,
contingent
>leader, 608-k, gulf ridge council, florida

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:23:12 -0400
From: "Dr. Bob Klein" <drbob@troop111.org>
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Catapiller - small group

Excellent point. The need to wait before getting back in line is a
critical and oft overlooked point in caterpillaring. This is especially

critical when a Crew is either only occasionally caterpillaring, or is
caterpillaring with a large number of steps. If everyone doesn't wait,
the first members of the caterpillar are getting much longer breaks than

the last members. This is because the Crew members usually step back in

line immediately after the end of the line passes them. So if the Crew
is stretched out (normally), the hiker in the front gets a 45 second
break (or more), while the guy in the back gets a 10 - 15 second break.
If your weaker hikers are in the rear (as seems so often the case),
the caterpillar is counterproductive, because your strong hikers are
getting great breaks, and your weak hikers are barely getting a break at

all. Whenever I chat with Crews that "hate" the caterpillar (as I did
with a Crew from Dallas about 10 days ago in Yosemite), this is almost
always what is happening. The proper protocol if you are running, e.g.,

a seven step caterpillar is for each hiker to wait until the line has
passed him by seven steps before he/she gets back in line. In this way,

all hikers get an equal break. It goes without saying that this
requires hiking discipline by the entire Crew - our standard line to
guys who are jumping in early is: "Don't Cheat the Cat".

- Dr. Bob

Scott Sibley wrote:
>
> It doesn't matter if you take more steps. You are going to get a break

> that is equal to the time it takes your crew to pass a point. So you
are
> right, a smaller crew will equal shorter breaks.
>
> We had several times when some of the slower crew members were getting

> even slower. At these times I asked the leader to add a minute or so
to
> the break. He did this by waiting a minute after the last crew member
> passed him. So everyone gets a longer break, everyone gets the same
> break, and everyone still has the idea that this is a
> stand-up-packs-on-short-breather break.
>
> As the trek went on, the scouts caught on to this and didn't need
> coaching on when to add to the breaks.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Sibley
> 1975 623-A-1
> 2004 621-D-5 Trek 4
>

------------------------------

End of philmont Digest V01 #1083
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Received on Wed Aug 11 07:14:33 2004

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RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1083