The Phil-list Dec_2004: RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest

From: Dave Parmly <PARMLYD@pilottravelcenters.com>
Date: Wed Dec 29 2004 - 06:49:52 CST

Maybe it's me, but it seems the debate over bear canisters as opposed to
bear bags is comparing two very different issues. The idea of bear
canisters is very helpful in an environment where the animals have
already learned, through the unsupervised habits of thousands of sloppy
American campers, that people + tents = food. The canister is designed
by a pessimist/realist who has already decided that the bear is
purposefully coming into camp looking for food. No matter how neat and
Leave-No-Trace camper "Z" might be, Campers "A" through "Y" have, over
time, conditioned the bear who has taught her cubs, who taught their
cubs, to associate the round blue thing with something that at least
smells like it has potential to be food, whether they get into it or
not. Scouts coming to Philmont should be more disciplined than the
average camper at Yosemite or on the AT, plus there are rangers and
staffers to keep them honest. Based upon the evidence I've seen on the
trail, from the detritus left behind by Inca-hat wearing, Greens-loving
campers with packs and poles festooned with Earth-First and Sierra Club
patches and stickers, in spite of all their talk about "loving the
environment", I maintain far too many backcountry hikers are
fundamentally selfish, lazy, undisciplined slobs on the trail who'd like
little more than to look down on we, "BSA brown-shirt Nazis", who
actually try to live the Outdoor Code. Bear canisters are excellent for
anyone who is going where these people go and who wants their food
protected.

The way I perceived the anti-bear philosophy at Philmont is, through
their highly supervised environment, to keep the vast majority of bears
from even making the association that people + tents = food. It seems
to me that the canister does PROTECT your food from bears, but leaving
it on the ground with food aroma on the outside of the canister still
draws animals to the conclusion that tents + people = food. The
principles of the Bear-muda triangle are not just to keep the animal
from eating your food. Considering the numbers of Scouts who pass
through Philmont every year and the statistically low number of genuine
bear encounters that the animal was deliberately coming after people it
associated with food, I'd say let Philmont keep doing what they are
doing.

IMHAWIO, the bear canister is conceding defeat to the animals and indeed
inviting them in to camp, creates a greater potential danger to people
and ultimately, changes the behavior of the animals.

Dave Parmly
Knoxville TN

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont-request@troop47.com [mailto:philmont-request@troop47.com]

Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:05 AM
To: Philmont
Subject: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1222

philmont Digest Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:04:37 -0600 V01 #1222

Today's topics:
     'RE: [Philmont]: Bear Bags'
     'RE: Closet Rod hiking staff'
     '[Philmont]: RE: Closet Rod hiking staff'
     'Re: Trekking poles'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:07:06 -0800 (PST)
From: brent steiner <scoutsbls@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Bear Bags

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I would like to support the idea of Philmont going the the bear canister
method instead of hanging bear bags. This last summer we did a 12 day
backpacking trip in Yosemite National Park which include 2 food drops.
The park requires bear canisters instead of hanging in most of the
backcountry. We took 3 'Bear Vault' canisters and rented one more from
the park. They worked extremely well. The canisters fit right into the
backpacks (external and interal frames, they do add about 2.5 pounds but
that is somewhat offset in not having to carry ropes and bags). We had
8 different black bear come into camp and a couple of visits in the
middle of the night. The bears were always in/around the highly used
camp sites not in the true remote spots we camped in. Never had a
problem with the canisters, the bears will knock them over and roll them
around but they know they couldn't get in them so they went looking
elsewhere. Pan banging and pine cone throwing is a necessary skill in
Yosemite
when you are in camp as the bears seem to know when its chow time.

Brent Steiner
Troop 141
Mason Mi
Philmont 2002

"Donald S. Roberts" <donald@hummellawfirm.com> wrote:
> From: Tom Lindtveit
> I would hate
> to see Philmont adapt canisters because I think everyone on the crew
> would have to carry one in order to store 3 days of food. We are
> beginning the "canister fight" up here and I am firmly agin it, but I
> won't get into it here. Lets just say that whatever works for
> you should suffice.
>
Just for the record, for those not familiar with canisters, they
don't take up extra room and hardly much extra weight. They fit
just fine into the pack, and they only cause a problem if you are
silly enough to pack them empty. Ya gotta carry the stuff that goes
in the canisters anyway, and if you don't have enough to fill all the
canisters at any particular point, you can fill them with other things
from your pack to keep them from increasing your bulk. They actually
help the external backpack folks by giving you something round and
unpokey against your back :-).
We have a lot of black bears around here to, but they have not yet
gotten our bags hung with the balance method down. We have watched
them bat around a canister until they got bored, though :-).

The important thing, however, is to find a method that bears rarely
get into. It is, after all, for the protection of the bears, not
our stuff. Once they learn how to get in, that bear is marked
for death, and we certainly don't want that, now do we?

FWIW, our troop had a bear attack about 12 years ago (it's
featured in our local training films). No one knows why, but the kid
got his scalp ripped open. He was sewn together and continued in
scouting. We are definitely a troop that is considerably "bear aware."

Regards
Don Roberts

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<DIV>I would like to support the idea of Philmont going the the bear
canister method instead of hanging bear bags.  This last summer we
did a 12 day backpacking trip in Yosemite National Park which include 2
food drops.  The park requires bear canisters instead of hanging in
most of the backcountry.  We took 3 'Bear Vault' canisters and
rented one more from the park.  They worked extremely well. 
The canisters fit right into the backpacks (external and interal frames,
they do add about 2.5 pounds but that is somewhat offset in not having
to carry ropes and bags).  We had 8 different black bear come into
camp and a couple of visits in the middle of the night. The bears
were always in/around the highly used camp sites not in the true remote
spots we camped in.  Never had a problem with the canisters, the
bears will knock them over and roll them around but they know they
couldn't get in them so they went looking elsewhere.  Pan banging
and
pine cone throwing is a necessary skill in Yosemite when you are in
camp as the bears seem to know when its chow time.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Brent Steiner</DIV>
<DIV>Troop 141</DIV>
<DIV>Mason Mi</DIV>
<DIV>Philmont 2002 "Donald S. Roberts"
<donald@hummellawfirm.com> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">> From: Tom Lindtveit > I would
hate > to see Philmont adapt canisters because I think everyone on
the crew > would have to carry one in order to store 3 days of
food. We are > beginning the "canister fight" up here and I am
firmly agin it, but I > won't get into it here. Lets just say that
whatever works for > you should suffice. > Just for the
record, for those not familiar with canisters, they don't take up
extra room and hardly much extra weight. They fit just fine into the
pack, and they only cause a problem if you are silly enough to pack
them empty. Ya gotta carry the stuff that goes in the canisters
anyway, and if you don't have enough to fill all the canisters at
any particular point, you can fill them with other things from your
pack to keep them from increasing your bulk. They actually help the
external backpack folks by giving you something round and unpokey
against your back :-). We have a lot of black bears around here to,
but they have not yet gotten our bags hung with the balance method
down. We have watched them bat around a canister until they got
bored, though :-). The important thing, however, is to find a
method that bears rarely get into. It is, after all, for the
protection of the bears, not our stuff. Once they learn how to get
in, that bear is marked for death, and we certainly don't want that,
now do we? FWIW, our troop had a bear attack about 12 years ago
(it's featured in our local training films). No one knows why, but
the kid got his scalp ripped open. He was sewn together and continued
in scouting. We are definitely a troop that is considerably "bear
aware." Regards Don
Roberts -----------------------------------------
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brave, clean and
reverent. ------------------------------------------------------- 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:49:30 -0600
From: "Jonas Jon W Contr AMC/A38IP" <Jon.Jonas@scott.af.mil>
Subject: RE: Closet Rod hiking staff

In 2002, I used something similar with a rubber foot on one end. Since
I traveled by train, there was no difficulty transporting it. The
Ranger thought I was nuts. It worked OK for me, and I had it branded at
Clark's Fork and my crew carved initials in it--that plus staff shields
make it a nice memento. However, since then I bought trekking poles and
will take them next time.

I added a wrist strap to my tall hiking pole by drilling a hole through,
threading leather thong through the hole, and tying a 3-inch by 5-inch
scrap of soft leather between the two thong ends. I measured (by
eyeball) where I gripped the pole and adjusted the length of the leather
thong to put the scrap pad where my hand would be, slightly above my
waist level--where it's most comfortable for me. With this strap, I was
able to put my weight on the pole while going up hill without having to
choke the pole with my hand. Same principle as wrist straps on trekking
poles. It also kept me from dropping the pole if my hand slipped.=20

There were a few times we were glad to have the longer pole--the
trekking poles only expand to about 4 feet or so--but I don't know that
I'd take this with me next time. After trying a pair of trekking poles,
they're the way to go for me.

Jon Jonas
Dynamics Research Corporation
618.744.9412 X152

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:32:20 -0600
From: jpsampson1@mmm.com
Subject: [Philmont]: RE: Closet Rod hiking staff

Return Receipt

Your [Philmont]: RE: Closet Rod hiking staff

document

was Jill P. Sampson/US-Corporate/3M/US

received

by:

at: 12/28/2004 12:32:20 PM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:39:20 -0500
From: "E Fred Mussler" <emuss3@ipass.net>
Subject: Re: Trekking poles

Treking poles are a must for adults going to Double H! I'm in the over
49
crowd and have used them for a while, they are great! All of the pros'
and
cons have been covered pretty well. Besides the obvious of getting the
equipment and using it before you go, there is another consideration. If
you
use treking poles you should add some upper body excercises to your
regime.
Its amazing how much your arms and chest will absorb. I did my walking
with
my poles or with small hand weights. It doesnt take much but should not
be
overlooked.

Back to Double H.....as opposed to Philmont, there are NO trails, it is
a
deliberate cross country experience to spread out the impact on the
environment and the elk. That means you may be walking for kilometers
over
loose, broken talus, on the side of mountains as you follow a contour
looking for a saddle to cross, or just straight up and down. We heard on
our
wilderness guide's radio nightly of people leaving the trail, mostly
adults,
do to a variety of knee, ankle, back ,hip, etc injuries.

For whatever it is worth, try them, you may like them and practice makes
perfect.
YIS
Hiking Czar a.k.a.
Fred Mussler, Scoutmaster
Troop 357 Raleigh, NC
Eagle Class of 75
Philmont 1990,98,00,02
Double H Ranch Charter Hiker 2004 -717A-
Philmont Advisor 2006, 08-1

------------------------------

End of philmont Digest V01 #1222
********************************

Received on Fri Dec 31 16:41:53 2004

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RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1222