RE: [Philmont]: Propane Stoves

I'm the one that highlighted Jim's point. Joe's interpretation is the same
as mine. I have always liked the convenience of canister stoves (easy to
start -- no priming and simple to set up). The powermax stove is one that
is supported by Philmont and is a good example of what can happen when a mfg
engineers its canisters to be easily recyclable. Despite this, I grew tired
of recycling canisters so I purchased an MSR multi-fuel stove that uses
liquid fuel. I use white gas generally. I haven't recycled a canister for
the backpacking stove in years. I just continue to reuse the msr bottles
over and over. Of course, I have to eventually dispose of the can that
holds the white gas, but for some reason I feel better about that than alot
of canisters. I do own and occasionally use canisters for lanterns etc.
 
Also, as someone else pointed out, it's easy to transfer fuel in liquid
form. when we got to Philmont, we actually used liquid fuel that another
crew had left over. Philmont will refilter and store the leftover liquid
fuel brought in by crews. We filled our bottles at base camp and only
refilled, I think, two bottles on the trek. We had a lot of that left over
and returned the overage to Philmont for another crew. We couldn't have
done that with a canister stove and the cost was really cheap.
 
These are just considerations for each crew. Each crew needs to make its
own decision about what it will use and why. The advisor can give the pros
and cons and the crew can use both and decide just like the use of the
turkey bag cooking method.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Simonis [mailto:js1864@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 4:05 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Propane Stoves

I took Jim's post to mean reusing a re-usable medium is better than
recycling. Such as refillable white gas bottles are more enviro friendly
than recycling aluminum canisters.
 
No way anyone is advocating refilling disposable propane bottles.
Especially Jim, from what I know of him from his posts.
 
Joe Simonis
ASM T6
West Chester, PA
'04

  _____

From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Gary Boyd
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 11:41 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Propane Stoves

OK, then, James, let's take a different tack.

Your original point was that butane/propane tanks are not recyclable. That
point is easily debunked.

Your new point is that reuse is more environmentally friendly than
recycling. Ignoring the point that it probably takes more energy to
manufacture a steel container in the first place let's look at the
feasibility of reuse of disposable propane tanks.

Language found on every disposable propane tank:

Federal Law forbids transportation if refilled - penalty up to $500,000 fine
and five years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124)

If you go to Cabelas you'll find this language at their ad for the
disposable tank propane filler: U.S. DOT prohibits the transportation of
re-filled disposable bottles.

(Note: If you refill the way the Cabelas picture shows you get gas, not
liquid and a relatively short burn time. To do it right you have to invert
the bulk tank and pull on the disposable's pressure relief valve with needle
nose pliers until liquid flows out. Not a real safe practice. Have I done
it? Yes. See the following for why I don't anymore.)

You will find a number on the green disposables like the following example:

DOT-39 NRC 2228/286 M1003 (M1003 = registration number of the manufacturer)

DOT-39 tanks are not heat treated like a DOT 4BA bulk tank.

As a result of the manufacturing process, the metal that disposable tanks
are made from is work-hardened and brittle. Heat treatment, as for DOT 4BA
tanks, softens the metal and restores it's elasticity. Without elasticity,
the metal won't "give" and distribute loads evenly, instead concentrating
pressures around flaws in the metal, dents, scratches, welds, rust spots, or
sharp bends. These high load concentrations fatigue the metal greatly - and
more important, unpredictably - making reuse of a DOT 39 tank a gamble.

Further, the disposable cylinders do not have a safety margin to withstand
internal rust. The propane put in the cylinders at the factory under ideal
conditions is dry. The propane you buy for your backyard barbecue grill is
not. Fuel grade propane is moisture saturated meaning that your disposable
cylinder rusts from the inside, out of sight. Will an occasional refilling
be dangerous? Possibly not, but "reuse last a long time, then recycle" is
inviting a nasty surprise.

Are you willing to be a scout's life that refilling a disposable propane
tank is a safe thing to do.

Not me.

Gary Boyd
Georgetown, Texas

James H. Moss wrote:

Reuse is better than recycle. Recycle takes energy and water. Reuse last a

long time, then recycle. Night and day in my world. I recycled newspapers

until I learned to read on line now I reuse.

Jim Moss

-----Original Message-----

From: owner-philmont@troop47.com <mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com> [
mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com <mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com> ] On

Behalf Of Gary Boyd

Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:56 PM

To: Multiple recipients of list philmont

Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Propane Stoves

Disagree with both the following. This is from a Coleman news release:

Coleman Powermax fuel, which features an advanced blend of propane and

butane, was introduced to the backpacking and trekking market in 1997.

It has received rave reviews and awards from some of the toughest

critics after testing in a wide range of conditions. The cartridges

are self-sealing and can be detached and reattached without fuel loss.

Available in two sizes - 170 grams and 300 grams - Coleman Powermax

cartridges can be easily recycled, when empty, by consumers. A simple

church-key device known as a "Green KeyT" allows consumers to puncture

the empty cartridge and recycle it with other aluminum products.

The powermax cartridges are fully recyclable. That is one reason we switched

to these stoves.

Gary Boyd

Crew 151 CC/Troop 151 SA

Georgetown, Texas

Garrett, Russ wrote:

Jim's point about LNT and canisters is well taken. That is why I

switched to liquid fuel several years ago for most applications

Moss, Jim wrote:

On another note, all butane mixes are non-refillable and are not really

recyclable. As such, they do not meet LNT or recycle/reuse

environmental practices.

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Received on Wed Feb 15 23:01:10 2006