The Phil-list Jan_2004: RE: [Philmont]: "ON VACATION"

From: Mike Hirschi <mch@uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 - 08:26:55 CST

I don't know about the "on vacation" philosophy. Maybe I was just spoiled
by my experience with a 2001 crew at Philmont, but the 3 advisors were on
the duty roster each day. But we didn't get assigned to all tasks. We
never led the hike. We didn't (couldn't) participate in the Urraca
"Challenges". We stood back and let decisions on which trail to take be
made by the boys. But, when it came to setting up camp, putting up bear
bags, cooking, cleaning, etc., we were on the team like one of the scouts.
But, we were just that, on the team. The scouts didn't have to watch what
they said, other than normal courtesies. We pulled our weight, but no more.
That is in contrast to what I heard a leader of another 2001 crew
philosophize that "I'm on vacation, the boys do everything". The latter
philosophy seems like "I'm along for the ride, serve me", which I believe is
different that was is being recommended in this forum.

I hope what is meant by Shane and others is that "we're there to watch and
protect the scouts and to watch them grow and it's like being on vacation",
rather than "I don't do anything, just enjoy".

Now, to put our 2001 crew in context, all the scouts were 14. None of the
advisors were in major positions of responsibility/authority in the troop
and all 3 of us were with our own sons. Those 5 14 y-o's are now 17 y-os
and all 5 are Eagle, or will be within 6 mos. Maybe I'm jaded and the 2005
crew will change my attitude...

Thanks for all the comments and opinions,

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]On
Behalf Of Shane Hoffman
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:02 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: "ON VACATION"

--snip--
Charlie Pineo wrote:
"In our crew, neither of the 2 advisors was "on vacation." We were on the
duty roster every day and we each had one vote when it came to votes. Only
in matters of discipline and safety did we have a golden vote; and even
then, we had one incident where we found it more productive and effective to
turn the disciplinary issue over to the crew leader and his assistant to
resolve."
--snip--

Philmont is for the boys. They learn that they can push themselves farther
than they ever thought before. They learn to work in a team. They learn
responsibility to others besides themselves. They learn that it hurts to
let others down. They learn that it feels wonderful to help the group
succeed.

Philmont is for the adults too, though. It provides some "ultimate
satisfaction" in standing back and watching a well prepared crew succeed.
It shows where the program is strong, and where it is weak. It also shows
that all of the aches and pains are still worth it.

I always use the term "on vacation" when discussing the adult advisor's role
at Philmont. I also say that the only reason we (adult advisors) are there
is "to make sure no one ends up dead." I was taught these sayings early on
by my Scoutmaster (21 Philmont arrowhead patches earned as a Scout and
Scouter). Having trekked twice as a Scout and twice as an adult advisor, I
can speak to both the thought processes of the boys and of the advisors.

When I go to Philmont as an adult advisor I am "on vacation." The only
thing that could be better than being at Philmont on vacation with my crew
would be being at Philmont with my wife and 3 daughters as part of my crew.

When I use the term "crew" below, I am referring to the Scouts/Venturers in
the crew, not the advisors.

We (Troop 445) do not include adult advisors on our duty rosters because
having adults on the duty roster gets in the way of crew's cohesion in the
day to day mundane tasks of backpacking, of learning how to function as a
well-oiled team. Remember your time as a Scout. The crew cannot truly bond
with adults around all of the time. As much as I loved my Scoutmaster, I
would have hated being on the duty roster with him in any chore. I would
have felt confined, having to watch every word, every mannerism.

When we (Troop 445) prepare for Philmont, we (adult advisors) spend the
first two shakedowns teaching the crews what to expect from a "typical"
Philmont day, and what expectations (however small) we have for the crew.
The rest of the shakedowns are truly "crew led" experiences. Our Crew
Leaders are selected with 3 shakedowns to go, and run the show from then on
(with the advisors in the background - SM/SPL type of relationship).

I've watched crews take 30 minutes to break camp and hike, and I've watched
crews take 2 hours to break camp and hike. The crew decides how fast they
want to move. I've gotten up at 3:30am to hike, and at 7am to hike. Again,
the crew decides. We (adult advisors) follow along, even when we know the
crew has made a wrong trail decision, because the crew made that decision.

It is our (adult advisors) responsibility to "delineate" the options of the
upcoming day (say what you want, the Scouts never think that far ahead or in
that much detail - I didn't), then let the crew decide which of those
options they want to take advantage of.

As for discipline....

I am a firm believer in letting the crew fix problems, UNTIL it is clear
that they are either unaware of the problems, ignoring or not trying to fix
the problems, or are trying to fix the problems in a way which will
exacerbate the problem. I have watched a crew I barely know come apart at
the seams because of one problem that they could not deal with. As soon as
adults stepped in, the problem was solved, and the crew was stronger for it.
I have watched a crew decide at a pack break to sit together and open the
air until all "grievances" were resolved (this was one of the most moving
experiences I've ever had with a small group).

When it is time for adult advisors to step in, we must be prepared to step
in with all means necessary to solve the problem. Sometimes, a talk with
the Crew Leader is enough to start the problem solving process. Sometimes
you have to have an all-out crew conference to solve the problem.
Sometimes, someone has to leave the trail to solve the problem. I've seen
crews with the need for Philmont's Chaplains to step in to help solve
problems (that is never good...).

One thing adults need to discuss and prepare for before their trek is the
possibility of severe problems on the trail, either medical or disciplinary,
and decide who will step in, how they will step in, who leaves the trail if
necessary... Don't leave this type of planning out, or your group of
advisors will have their own internal problems building while on the trail.

Sorry for the long post. "on vacation" just kind of pushed a hot button.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Shane Hoffman
ASM Troop 445
www.troop445.org
SHoffman@troop445.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <abthomson@comcast.net>
To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Trek Itinerary Selection

> Charlie Pineo writes...
>
> In our crew, neither of the 2 advisors was "on vacation." We were on the
duty roster every day and we each had one vote when it came to votes. Only
in matters of discipline and safety did we have a golden vote; and even
then, we
> had one incident where we found it more productive and effective to turn
the
> disciplinary issue over to the crew leader and his assistant to resolve.
>
> Comment...
>
> While I do not necesarily have a problem with Advisors being on the duty
Roster (though in my crews we tend to give each Advisor an area of
responsibility and they then work, in the background, each day with the boys
actually doing that chore), I would suggest that in most cases that the
Advisors NOT "get a vote" in crew decisions.
>
> And I hope that I am misreading an implication that discipline and safety
were also matters that came to "a vote." While the crew leader should be
involved with the Advisors in those areas, it should never come to a vote.
>
> - Al Thomson, Troop 236,
> Schooley's Mountain, NJ
> Treks 1999, 2001, 2003
> Autumn Advenures 2000,2002, 2004
>
>
>
>
>
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-------------------------------------------------------
As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
-------------------------------------------------------

Received on Fri Jan 30 08:47:16 2004

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