The Phil-list Jul_2007: [Philmont] what I would do next time abo

From: Ched Hudson <chedhudson@verizon.net>
Date: Wed Jul 18 2007 - 09:02:34 CDT

Jim,

I'm guessing you read my post too quickly. Each member carries on average
four liters of water (more or less depending on water availability along the
way.) Three of those bottles they don't put their lips on. When the drinking
bottle is empty, they refill from one of the other ones.

The Army, Marines, and others didn't do their studies with 14 year olds.

>Ched Hudson
Troop 994, Fairfax Station, VA
Philmont '67, '04, '06
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:Philmont@troop47.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Moss
  Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:28 PM
  To: Philmont List Member
  Subject: [Philmont] what I would do next time about hauling water

So you are going against the studies of the US Army, Marines and others
that show that bladders are the most effective way to hydrate and stay
hydrated. Bladders can't be pulled out and looked at?

Only one nalgene of water per hiker. Seems pretty risky to me. In an
emergency you are leaving everyone short of water. I just got off the grand
and had an emergency. I filled 2 bladders, 3 platypus full of water (close
to 3 gallons) because I knew the team at the accident site needed the water.
If you had to do that in this scenario you would have left everyone with
only one nalgene, no reserves, and could not have carried enough water to
keep the rescue team hydrated. Besides the weight of the nalgene's would
have cut down on the amount of water you can carry.

I've never put water in a nalgene. Too much spills when you drink from it.
Big waste of water, too heavy also. If you want to carry water in small
containers use a platypus, easily cleaned, see through and weighs grams not
ounces.

Having youth members of a crew carry a nalgene bottle that is a crew item,
that is then used at cooking seems to be an easy way to pass any
contamination around.

Folks quit limiting youth and yourself. I love the stories of the 50's
and 60's Philmont trips, but things have changed. Equipment changes most of
the time for the better. If bladders were not efficient and effective, pack
manufactures would not have put bladder pockets in all of their packs.

As I keep saying, if we keep working and improving we can drag the BSA
into the 70's.

Jim Moss

  From: Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:Philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of Ched
Hudson
  Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:14 PM
  To: Philmont List Member
  Subject: [Philmont] what I would do next time about hauling water

I did not allow water bladders on either our training hikes or at
Philmont. As an advisor, I wanted to see for myself how much my scouts were
drinking, and the Camelbacks make that all but impossible. I have had
several scouts on day hikes dehydrate even with the tube in their mouth all
day.

The other issue for me was hygiene. Each crew member decorated one Nalgene
to make it readily identifiable as his drinking bottle. The other bottles
they carried were considered crew food, to be shared and used for cooking,
washing, and of course refilling the drinking bottles as they neared empty.
This made it easy to reallocate water as needed since some drank more than
others. A 3 liter Camelback is 3 liters of water that can't be shared.

Nalgenes are somewhat heavy for what they are, but they're pretty
bomb-proof. For myself, my family drinks a lot of seltzer water so I used 4
of the 1 liter PET plastic seltzer bottles for my water. They're about a
third of the weight of a Nalgene and very durable, and best of all they were
free.

For dry camps and the long haul from Clark's Fork over the Tooth we had
several collapsible Platypus bottles, lots of spare capacity for almost no
weight. In 2004 we had several of the zip-top Platypus bladders, but two of
the three developed leaks in the zipper and we switched to the conventional
style for our 2006 trek.

>Ched Hudson

Troop 994, Fairfax Station, VA

Philmont '67, '04, '06

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:Philmont@troop47.com]On Behalf Of
GEORGE TAYLOR
    Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:33 PM
    To: Philmont List Member
    Subject: [Philmont] 30% pack weight limit--what I would do next time
about hauling water

If there is one thing I would do differently the next time I go to
Philmont, it would be to mandate what water containers the boys carry.
Nalgenes are bulky and heavy and pretty much impossible to drink from while
you are on the move. My ideal setup would be to require that each boy carry
only one nalgene and that the primary water source be a three-liter bladder
with a drinking tube. That would give each boy the capacity to carry four
liters--more than enough for any dry camp. On most days, we would probably
carry the full nalgene and keep only two liters in the bladder. Having the
separate nalgene would keep a boy from drinking all his water without
knowing it. (Also helpful for advisers trying to keep up with water
supplies.)

I used a bladder for the first time at Philmont this year and must say
that it made quite a difference in staying hydrated. Being able to take a
few plugs of water as I huffed and puffed up Baldy (and other various and
sundry unreasonably steep hills) frequently gave me the boost I needed to
make it. The bladder also centered the weight of the water squarely between
my shoulders rather than having it off-center or on the outside of pack.

My son has a camelback three-liter bladder that has a wide-mouth screw
on cap, and it worked very well, but I use a platypus three-liter that has a
zip-lock top. The platypus weighs only four ounces!

On this summer's trip, we required boys who thought they would like to
drink gatorade on the trek to take an extra empty Gatorade bottle to be used
for flavored drinks. That saved hauling nalgenes up in the bear bag at
night (they stayed by the sump) and worked very well for us. When we
encountered the water at Cimaroncito, I wished I had been able to mix
Gatorade with it.

We also had one adviser who insisted from time to time on carrying (lots
of) extra water for the boys. This is not a practice I would recommend
because it sends the wrong message and avoids the very instructive moment
when a boy has to ask his mates to share.

Good luck!

George

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Received on Wed Jul 18 09:11:37 2007

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