Jim,
"When I took a Philmont trip in 1967 as a youth, I was told that I had
the 3rd external frame backpack they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them
that summer and I was the first camper to carry one, a Kelty".
Could that possibly be because Kelty's were invented about that time and
were considered so revolutionary that they instantly transformed the
backpacking industry? What did people carry before Kelty's? Hmmmm.
Prior to that, most backpacks were "potato sacks" left over / derived
from WW II. Take a look at the "classic" BSA rucksacks and THAT is what
was used at Philmont prior to Kelty's. Hardly internal if you ask me.
More like NOternal.
When I was a camper / on staff in the mid to late late 70's , NOBODY had
an internal frame. The Ranger department was 100% external. I'm
serious. Only in the past 15-20 years have internal become the favorite
"5 to 1" (not sure where that ratio came from but assume that it has a
verifiable source).
Rice Brewer
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Moss: BSA Law
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:56 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: The Comments about Internal and External frame
backpacks are WRONG, MISLEADING, AND INCORRECT
I apologize now, because the comments that I am replying to are so bogus
and outrageous they sent me through the roof.
I have carried internal frames and external frames for long distances
and for a lot of days. In the future if you are going to publish
ridiculous ideas about one type of pack/tent or item, tell us how many
days you have used the item you are complaining about, so we know. I
have over 1000 days with internal and external frame backpacks.
If what you say is correct, why does the rest of the world disagree with
you by a margin of 5 to 1? It is quite obvious your observations are not
based on experience or fact, only speculation.
I disagree with you on all but one of your points. In fact, I find two
of them have no basis. You are right about price, a the space shuttle
costs more than a 1967 Volkswagen.
Internal frame backpacks outsell external frame backpacks 5 to 1 now
days. If any of your points were true that would not be the case. Kelty,
the creator of the external frame backpack, now sells more internal
frame backpacks then external frames. When I took a Philmont trip in
1967 as a youth, I was told that I had the 3rd external frame backpack
they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them that summer and I was the first
camper to carry one, a Kelty. Everyone else had internal frames. Even I
moved on to the next generation.
I sweat, I list sweating on my resume next to eating. I even sweat in
Colorado where no one sweats.
I have carried my internal frame backpacks for more than 15 days in
Colorado, 12 days in New Mexico and over 30 consecutive days more than
a dozen times. I have carried my internal frame in the desert, at
Philmont and all over North America. I carried 80 pounds my last
Philmont trip and have carried over 100 pounds in my internal frame
packs. (When I was carrying pot bullied stoves in the White Mountains to
re-outfit AMC huts in the early 70's I carried 120 pounds in external
frame packs, but then there were no internal frames then.) I have never
had any rubbing or wear problems. Why would one type wear and not the
other. The amount of "fabric" against you skin is the same in both
cases. Generally external frames have a horizontal pattern, internal
frames vertically. That just does not make mathematical or logical
sense.
Like a nice suit, you need to make sure the pack fits. External frame
backpacks fit anyone because there is no fit to them. (By the way, the
amount of surface pressure on your body is greater in spots with an
external frame then an internal frame if you look at packs. You have
stated a complete fallacy there.)
Air movement between the frame and your back with an external frame
backpack is another fallacy. There is not enough air moving between your
back and the bag to make a difference. Lowe's internal frames can
provide as much "air movement." In the store, a sales person will slide
their hand between the frame and the back band to show you air movement.
Pack it up, put it on, wear if for a day and see if the weight and the
back band stretch create any space for air movement. (And don't tell me
the fabric does not stretch, if it didn't you would be wearing a 2x4 at
the end of the day.) Besides, what is moving the air that is going to
make a difference?
Internal frame back packs are just as easy to pack, if you know how to
pack. You are going to be less miserable, but still uncomfortable if
you just dump everything in an external frame pack. My last Philmont
trip, I was always the first one packed and I carried more than anyone
else on the trip. In fact, with the two way openings on internal frames,
you can do a better job of packing a pack because you can see what you
are doing, rather than just dumping things in the bag. See packing tips
below.
Your walking on a tilt is down right STUPID. Internal backpackers who
walk on a tilt because they have adjusted their shoulder straps
incorrectly. Think about what you said and how wrong that statement is.
Think how much weight you would have to put in a pack to make it list to
the point that people walk on a tilt. That much weight in any pack,
packed incorrectly, is going to make anyone walk in a tilt.
As I stated above, you do have to learn packing to pack an internal
frame. That is one of the small reasons why they work better. External
frame most people just dump stuff in. Consequently it is quick and easy.
Another example of not teaching youth good backpacking skills. Potato
sacks are easier to fill also.
You can either buy a pack with internal dividers and pack the way the
pack manufacturer suggest for the rest of the pack's life or you can
organize your gear and pack the way you want to when ever you use your
pack. Internal pockets/dividers mean you can't carry odd shaped gear in
your pack. (When I carried my Kelty at Philmont, I dreaded the day I had
to carry the big pot. It did not fit, I had to attach it to the outside
where it swung around and allowed everyone else to fill it with rocks.)
There is no difference between internal pockets or dividers and stuff
sacks. And as far as hooking up things on the outside, you have never
seen a Mountainsmith. I carry my tent fly, poles, wands, rain gear,
crampons, ice axes, stoves and fuel bottles on the outside of my pack.
Nothing flopping, nothing making noise, all tight quickly accessible and
on the outside.
You are right about price. Potato sacks are easier to make then a good
internal frame backpack. The space shuttle cost more than an 1967
Volkswagen. The reason why you can buy an external frame backpack on
eBay is because no one wants them anymore. Get with the 80's.
Gear Reviews: Gear reviews are paid for. I know, I review gear. The
winners are whoever buys the most advertising that year. You can scream
at me about this, but remember I work in this industry.
Sorry, but this comment is providing bad information to people on this
list and needed to know the truth.
Jim
Bad year 2003, I only got 50 days in my sleeping bag.
Packing tips: avoid internal frames with no side zip. If the internal
frame only packs from the top, you are buying a potato sack. Take your
rain cover for the pack, oven the cover up and lay it on the ground. Lay
your internal frame down on the rain cover and open it up. Start
packing from the bottom up. Heavy loads on top, supported with sturdy
loads on the way down, delicate things on the side. Zip up the back
pack, stuff your rain/cold gear on top, attach any items to the side or
back, dust off your rain cover, and stuff it.
I am copying this message to a few of my friends to see if they have any
comments. Gareth Richards, sales manager of Lowe Alpine, Phil Mesdag of
Sierra Designs (owned by the same company that owns Kelty), formerly of
Mountainsmith and Dennis Brune, of Alps, and Andy Anderson of Dana
Designs. If I am wrong, these guys will call me on it. (These guys love
to call me on things!)
Jim
James H. Moss, JD
PO Box 16743
Golden, CO 80402
<mailto:jhmoss@earthlink.net> jhmoss@earthlink.net
<mailto:jmoss@cmc.edu> jmoss@cmc.edu
-------------------------------------------------------
Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org
Subscribe/Unsubscribe at http://usscouts.org/lists/
Listserv Commands at http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
-------------------------------------------------------
Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------
As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
-------------------------------------------------------
Received on Thu Jun 24 13:52:17 2004
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed Jul 26 2006 - 11:59:55 CDT