Another interesting comment, I was told by a long-time Philmont'r that in
the very early days of Philmont, not only did they use the "potato sack"
style rucksack, but they carried dutch ovens to cook in. Imagine that!
Again, I don't know this for a a fact, so if it is in error, I apologize
prior to flaming <g>.
YIS.
Mike Conkey
2002 Trek 719A
2004 Trek 716A
"Rice Brewer"
<hriceb@sbcglobal To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
.net> <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent by: cc:
owner-philmont@tr Subject: RE: [Philmont]: The Comments about Internal and
oop47.com External frame backpacks are WRONG, MISLEADING, AND
INCORRECT
06/24/2004 11:35
AM
Please respond to
philmont
Jim,
"When I took a Philmont trip in 1967 as a youth, I was told that I had the
3rd external frame backpack they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them that
summer and I was the first camper to carry one, a Kelty".
Could that possibly be because Kelty's were invented about that time and
were considered so revolutionary that they instantly transformed the
backpacking industry? What did people carry before Kelty's? Hmmmm. Prior
to that, most backpacks were "potato sacks" left over / derived from WW II.
Take a look at the "classic" BSA rucksacks and THAT is what was used at
Philmont prior to Kelty's. Hardly internal if you ask me. More like
NOternal.
When I was a camper / on staff in the mid to late late 70's , NOBODY had an
internal frame. The Ranger department was 100% external. I'm serious.
Only in the past 15-20 years have internal become the favorite "5 to 1"
(not sure where that ratio came from but assume that it has a verifiable
source).
Rice Brewer
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]
On Behalf Of Jim Moss: BSA Law
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:56 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: The Comments about Internal and External frame
backpacks are WRONG, MISLEADING, AND INCORRECT
I apologize now, because the comments that I am replying to are so
bogus and outrageous they sent me through the roof.
I have carried internal frames and external frames for long distances
and for a lot of days. In the future if you are going to publish
ridiculous ideas about one type of pack/tent or item, tell us how
many days you have used the item you are complaining about, so we
know. I have over 1000 days with internal and external frame
backpacks.
If what you say is correct, why does the rest of the world disagree
with you by a margin of 5 to 1? It is quite obvious your observations
are not based on experience or fact, only speculation.
I disagree with you on all but one of your points. In fact, I find
two of them have no basis. You are right about price, a the space
shuttle costs more than a 1967 Volkswagen.
Internal frame backpacks outsell external frame backpacks 5 to 1 now
days. If any of your points were true that would not be the case.
Kelty, the creator of the external frame backpack, now sells more
internal frame backpacks then external frames. When I took a Philmont
trip in 1967 as a youth, I was told that I had the 3rd external frame
backpack they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them that summer and I
was the first camper to carry one, a Kelty. Everyone else had
internal frames. Even I moved on to the next generation.
I sweat, I list sweating on my resume next to eating. I even sweat
in Colorado where no one sweats.
I have carried my internal frame backpacks for more than 15 days in
Colorado, 12 days in New Mexico and over 30 consecutive days more
than a dozen times. I have carried my internal frame in the desert,
at Philmont and all over North America. I carried 80 pounds my last
Philmont trip and have carried over 100 pounds in my internal frame
packs. (When I was carrying pot bullied stoves in the White Mountains
to re-outfit AMC huts in the early 70's I carried 120 pounds in
external frame packs, but then there were no internal frames then.) I
have never had any rubbing or wear problems. Why would one type wear
and not the other. The amount of "fabric" against you skin is the
same in both cases. Generally external frames have a horizontal
pattern, internal frames vertically. That just does not make
mathematical or logical sense.
Like a nice suit, you need to make sure the pack fits. External
frame backpacks fit anyone because there is no fit to them. (By the
way, the amount of surface pressure on your body is greater in spots
with an external frame then an internal frame if you look at packs.
You have stated a complete fallacy there.)
Air movement between the frame and your back with an external frame
backpack is another fallacy. There is not enough air moving between
your back and the bag to make a difference. Lowe's internal frames
can provide as much "air movement." In the store, a sales person
will slide their hand between the frame and the back band to show you
air movement. Pack it up, put it on, wear if for a day and see if the
weight and the back band stretch create any space for air movement.
(And don't tell me the fabric does not stretch, if it didn't you
would be wearing a 2x4 at the end of the day.) Besides, what is
moving the air that is going to make a difference?
Internal frame back packs are just as easy to pack, if you know how
to pack. You are going to be less miserable, but still uncomfortable
if you just dump everything in an external frame pack. My last
Philmont trip, I was always the first one packed and I carried more
than anyone else on the trip. In fact, with the two way openings on
internal frames, you can do a better job of packing a pack because
you can see what you are doing, rather than just dumping things in
the bag. See packing tips below.
Your walking on a tilt is down right STUPID. Internal backpackers who
walk on a tilt because they have adjusted their shoulder straps
incorrectly. Think about what you said and how wrong that statement
is. Think how much weight you would have to put in a pack to make it
list to the point that people walk on a tilt. That much weight in any
pack, packed incorrectly, is going to make anyone walk in a tilt.
As I stated above, you do have to learn packing to pack an internal
frame. That is one of the small reasons why they work better.
External frame most people just dump stuff in. Consequently it is
quick and easy. Another example of not teaching youth good
backpacking skills. Potato sacks are easier to fill also.
You can either buy a pack with internal dividers and pack the way the
pack manufacturer suggest for the rest of the pack's life or you can
organize your gear and pack the way you want to when ever you use
your pack. Internal pockets/dividers mean you can't carry odd shaped
gear in your pack. (When I carried my Kelty at Philmont, I dreaded
the day I had to carry the big pot. It did not fit, I had to attach
it to the outside where it swung around and allowed everyone else to
fill it with rocks.) There is no difference between internal pockets
or dividers and stuff sacks. And as far as hooking up things on the
outside, you have never seen a Mountainsmith. I carry my tent fly,
poles, wands, rain gear, crampons, ice axes, stoves and fuel bottles
on the outside of my pack. Nothing flopping, nothing making noise,
all tight quickly accessible and on the outside.
You are right about price. Potato sacks are easier to make then a
good internal frame backpack. The space shuttle cost more than an
1967 Volkswagen. The reason why you can buy an external frame
backpack on eBay is because no one wants them anymore. Get with the
80's.
Gear Reviews: Gear reviews are paid for. I know, I review gear. The
winners are whoever buys the most advertising that year. You can
scream at me about this, but remember I work in this industry.
Sorry, but this comment is providing bad information to people on
this list and needed to know the truth.
Jim
Bad year 2003, I only got 50 days in my sleeping bag.
Packing tips: avoid internal frames with no side zip. If the internal
frame only packs from the top, you are buying a potato sack. Take
your rain cover for the pack, oven the cover up and lay it on the
ground. Lay your internal frame down on the rain cover and open it
up. Start packing from the bottom up. Heavy loads on top, supported
with sturdy loads on the way down, delicate things on the side. Zip
up the back pack, stuff your rain/cold gear on top, attach any items
to the side or back, dust off your rain cover, and stuff it.
I am copying this message to a few of my friends to see if they have
any comments. Gareth Richards, sales manager of Lowe Alpine, Phil
Mesdag of Sierra Designs (owned by the same company that owns Kelty),
formerly of Mountainsmith and Dennis Brune, of Alps, and Andy
Anderson of Dana Designs. If I am wrong, these guys will call me on
it. (These guys love to call me on things!)
Jim
James H. Moss, JD
PO Box 16743
Golden, CO 80402
jhmoss@earthlink.net
jmoss@cmc.edu
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Received on Thu Jun 24 14:25:03 2004
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