MessageYes, you are correct. But that is one problem with the Scouting movement. It is still two decades behind and connected to the local big box store. Dick Kelty invented his external frame back packs in the early 1950's. My father carried his 1952 Kelty on a Philmont trip with me in the 1990's. Ugh! (Of course he had me to help carry stuff. He bragged that he carried the tent, minus poles, stakes and fly, half the time. 2 layover days and 4 days we went downhill.)
I carried 80 pounds because I did not know what I was getting into. My home council contingent, lost their leader 12 days before the trek (arrested for molesting kids) and my father volunteered me to fill in. I met the youth I was to spend 12 days backpacking with when they arrived in Denver. Consequently, I did not know what I was getting into, and over packed a little. At the same time, the 10+ first aid kit weighed less than 4 pounds when I got back. (Also all the extra energy drinks, snickers bars and M&Ms were gone. When you meet kids from Ohio, I knew if nothing else M&Ms would motivate them, unless they figured out they had been feed them at Summer camp for years as homesick pills........ I also brought, scones, pizza etc and taught the boys to eat well! Cooking took a little longer.)
Prior to my Kelty, which my parents bought for me for Philmont, I carried a trapper pack. Used a diamond hitch to lash four bags to it. Tent, Sleeping Bag, Food & Clothes. So I a frame.............sort of.
So your No-ternall is a correct explanation of everything prior to Kelty.
The one observation I made during that last trek, and since then was what the kids where backpacking with. Everything came from the big box and was sub standard equipment in my opinion. A Coleman frame broke on one pack. Hiking boots "broke in" and then fell apart. As I looked through the Scouting catalog when I got back, I realized that Scouting was offering equipment that was 20 years out of date. I have been working on that ever since. Getting manufacturer's to recognize Scouting (Gregory being the exception.), trying to get Scouting to recognize the 80's. Getting BSA to attend the Outdoor Retailer show so they could see what was happening in the world. Backpacking, camping, rock climbing are activities that become more fun with better equipment. Not because of the equipment, just better. If you can carry a few extra pounds comfortably in an internal frame pack, you have more choices. I can carry less weight or I can take a pizza kit. I can get an outback oven and have scones for breakfast, and use the outback oven contents to pack less fuel. The better I eat the better I feel. The more fun I have. The more options, the more phone.
Scouting lead's by example, and in my opinion, they are setting a lousy example. Dennis Brune used to be the President of Kelty and when he left to form ALPS, he and I talked about Scouting. Dennis believes and offers great deals to Scouts and has created a real opportunity to move up, yet his BSA program is little used. (Dennis who used to be President for the creator of external frames does not sell an external frame pack!)
Think about it. Almost 3000 people have summated Mt Everest, most of them American and to date I have yet to identify an Eagle Scout in the group or someone who even recognizes Scouting in their background. One of those issues is the fact that Scouting allows and encourages backpacking in the middle 20th century, when we are in the 21st century. Why hasn't the largest youth camping organization in the world let youth to greater backpacking experiences? (And if you know of someone please let me know, this is a sore spot with a lot of manufactures.)
Most kids wear ankle high hiking boots to Philmont. Yet none of the good hiking boot companies or hikers recommend that any more. Hiking boots that are being made by the best companies are low top running shoes. Philmont won't allow you to wear them hiking. Philmont rules are behind the curve and when this list promotes working behind the curve, I go a little (or a lot nuts.)
There are a lot of issues here. Money is one of them. Good stuff costs more. Boots may need to serve as hiking for Scouting and cleaning the barn. For a lot of families this is a real balancing test. But at least BSA families should have the option and good advice. Will a more expensive backpack change a Philmont experience, for more kids probably not, but it maybe important in deciding if Philmont is the last backpacking experience.
The Dutch oven would fit inside my Kelty. Made a mess, but fit.
Jim
James H. Moss, JD
PO Box 16743
Golden, CO 80402
jhmoss@earthlink.net
jmoss@cmc.edu
----- Original Message -----
From: Rice Brewer
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: The Comments about Internal and External frame backpacks are WRONG, MISLEADING, AND INCORRECT
Jim,
"When I took a Philmont trip in 1967 as a youth, I was told that I had the 3rd external frame backpack they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them that summer and I was the first camper to carry one, a Kelty".
Could that possibly be because Kelty's were invented about that time and were considered so revolutionary that they instantly transformed the backpacking industry? What did people carry before Kelty's? Hmmmm. Prior to that, most backpacks were "potato sacks" left over / derived from WW II. Take a look at the "classic" BSA rucksacks and THAT is what was used at Philmont prior to Kelty's. Hardly internal if you ask me. More like NOternal.
When I was a camper / on staff in the mid to late late 70's , NOBODY had an internal frame. The Ranger department was 100% external. I'm serious. Only in the past 15-20 years have internal become the favorite "5 to 1" (not sure where that ratio came from but assume that it has a verifiable source).
Rice Brewer
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of Jim Moss: BSA Law
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:56 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: The Comments about Internal and External frame backpacks are WRONG, MISLEADING, AND INCORRECT
I apologize now, because the comments that I am replying to are so bogus and outrageous they sent me through the roof.
I have carried internal frames and external frames for long distances and for a lot of days. In the future if you are going to publish ridiculous ideas about one type of pack/tent or item, tell us how many days you have used the item you are complaining about, so we know. I have over 1000 days with internal and external frame backpacks.
If what you say is correct, why does the rest of the world disagree with you by a margin of 5 to 1? It is quite obvious your observations are not based on experience or fact, only speculation.
I disagree with you on all but one of your points. In fact, I find two of them have no basis. You are right about price, a the space shuttle costs more than a 1967 Volkswagen.
Internal frame backpacks outsell external frame backpacks 5 to 1 now days. If any of your points were true that would not be the case. Kelty, the creator of the external frame backpack, now sells more internal frame backpacks then external frames. When I took a Philmont trip in 1967 as a youth, I was told that I had the 3rd external frame backpack they had ever seen, 2 staffers had them that summer and I was the first camper to carry one, a Kelty. Everyone else had internal frames. Even I moved on to the next generation.
I sweat, I list sweating on my resume next to eating. I even sweat in Colorado where no one sweats.
I have carried my internal frame backpacks for more than 15 days in Colorado, 12 days in New Mexico and over 30 consecutive days more than a dozen times. I have carried my internal frame in the desert, at Philmont and all over North America. I carried 80 pounds my last Philmont trip and have carried over 100 pounds in my internal frame packs. (When I was carrying pot bullied stoves in the White Mountains to re-outfit AMC huts in the early 70's I carried 120 pounds in external frame packs, but then there were no internal frames then.) I have never had any rubbing or wear problems. Why would one type wear and not the other. The amount of "fabric" against you skin is the same in both cases. Generally external frames have a horizontal pattern, internal frames vertically. That just does not make mathematical or logical sense.
Like a nice suit, you need to make sure the pack fits. External frame backpacks fit anyone because there is no fit to them. (By the way, the amount of surface pressure on your body is greater in spots with an external frame then an internal frame if you look at packs. You have stated a complete fallacy there.)
Air movement between the frame and your back with an external frame backpack is another fallacy. There is not enough air moving between your back and the bag to make a difference. Lowe's internal frames can provide as much "air movement." In the store, a sales person will slide their hand between the frame and the back band to show you air movement. Pack it up, put it on, wear if for a day and see if the weight and the back band stretch create any space for air movement. (And don't tell me the fabric does not stretch, if it didn't you would be wearing a 2x4 at the end of the day.) Besides, what is moving the air that is going to make a difference?
Internal frame back packs are just as easy to pack, if you know how to pack. You are going to be less miserable, but still uncomfortable if you just dump everything in an external frame pack. My last Philmont trip, I was always the first one packed and I carried more than anyone else on the trip. In fact, with the two way openings on internal frames, you can do a better job of packing a pack because you can see what you are doing, rather than just dumping things in the bag. See packing tips below.
Your walking on a tilt is down right STUPID. Internal backpackers who walk on a tilt because they have adjusted their shoulder straps incorrectly. Think about what you said and how wrong that statement is. Think how much weight you would have to put in a pack to make it list to the point that people walk on a tilt. That much weight in any pack, packed incorrectly, is going to make anyone walk in a tilt.
As I stated above, you do have to learn packing to pack an internal frame. That is one of the small reasons why they work better. External frame most people just dump stuff in. Consequently it is quick and easy. Another example of not teaching youth good backpacking skills. Potato sacks are easier to fill also.
You can either buy a pack with internal dividers and pack the way the pack manufacturer suggest for the rest of the pack's life or you can organize your gear and pack the way you want to when ever you use your pack. Internal pockets/dividers mean you can't carry odd shaped gear in your pack. (When I carried my Kelty at Philmont, I dreaded the day I had to carry the big pot. It did not fit, I had to attach it to the outside where it swung around and allowed everyone else to fill it with rocks.) There is no difference between internal pockets or dividers and stuff sacks. And as far as hooking up things on the outside, you have never seen a Mountainsmith. I carry my tent fly, poles, wands, rain gear, crampons, ice axes, stoves and fuel bottles on the outside of my pack. Nothing flopping, nothing making noise, all tight quickly accessible and on the outside.
You are right about price. Potato sacks are easier to make then a good internal frame backpack. The space shuttle cost more than an 1967 Volkswagen. The reason why you can buy an external frame backpack on eBay is because no one wants them anymore. Get with the 80's.
Gear Reviews: Gear reviews are paid for. I know, I review gear. The winners are whoever buys the most advertising that year. You can scream at me about this, but remember I work in this industry.
Sorry, but this comment is providing bad information to people on this list and needed to know the truth.
Jim
Bad year 2003, I only got 50 days in my sleeping bag.
Packing tips: avoid internal frames with no side zip. If the internal frame only packs from the top, you are buying a potato sack. Take your rain cover for the pack, oven the cover up and lay it on the ground. Lay your internal frame down on the rain cover and open it up. Start packing from the bottom up. Heavy loads on top, supported with sturdy loads on the way down, delicate things on the side. Zip up the back pack, stuff your rain/cold gear on top, attach any items to the side or back, dust off your rain cover, and stuff it.
I am copying this message to a few of my friends to see if they have any comments. Gareth Richards, sales manager of Lowe Alpine, Phil Mesdag of Sierra Designs (owned by the same company that owns Kelty), formerly of Mountainsmith and Dennis Brune, of Alps, and Andy Anderson of Dana Designs. If I am wrong, these guys will call me on it. (These guys love to call me on things!)
Jim
James H. Moss, JD
PO Box 16743
Golden, CO 80402
jhmoss@earthlink.net
jmoss@cmc.edu
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Received on Thu Jun 24 16:03:47 2004
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