The Phil-list Mar_2006: Re: [Philmont] - philmont Digest

From: <kra2829@aol.com>
Date: Wed Mar 01 2006 - 08:42:32 CST

Fire near philmont

By ASSOCIATED PRESS
March 1, 2006
MIAMI, N.M. (AP) - A fire has burned 6,000 acres in northeastern New Mexico and has forced the evacuation of the small farming and ranching community of Miami, state police say.

Four officers were handling the evacuation early Wednesday, but state police said they did not immediately know how many people left their homes.

The fire is near the Philmont Scout Ranch and was headed east toward Springer and south toward Miami, authorities said.

Miami is 12 miles west of Springer.

The Ponil Fire in June 2002 scorched 92,500 acres on the scout ranch.

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont-request@troop47.com
To: Philmont <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 00:04:43 -0600
Subject: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1690

philmont Digest Wed, 01 Mar 2006 00:04:43 -0600 V01 #1690

Today's topics:
     'Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary'
     'RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary'
     'Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
Selection)'
     'RE: An Advisor's Quandary'
     'Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary'
     'RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se
lection)'
     'Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
Selection)'
     'RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se
lection)'

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:10:33 EST
From: Txnscout@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary

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Simply put, the scouts should be in charge. They will be responsible for
navigating and working together when they arrive at the ranch. Let them get
into that mode early on, so they will form a solid team.

I would also suggest that you ask the crew members specifically why they
chose particular treks. There are several programs that the scouts seem to
prefer - Shooting rifles and shotguns, fishing, and rock climbing. Discuss
each
days program options with them. Also discuss side hike options with them.
Trail Peak is a great side hike, and should not be missed. There are many
other great side hikes on the ranch. I would also suggest looking at water
availability on each trek, as carrying large amounts of water is tough on the
entire crew.

Finally, here is nothing wrong with taking a "typical" trek. Any trek at
Philmont offers physical challenges. I still recall the hike from Cito to
Tooth ridge camp near the end of my "typical" trek in 2001. It pushed both the

youth and adults to their limits. Sometimes the book looks much easier than
the actual trek.

Chas. Clifton
Assoc. Advisor - Crew 177
Port Neches, Texas
Advisor 708G2001
Philmont Training Center Faculty in 2005
I used to a Bobwhite...SR-357, and then a Staffer...SR-439, SR-613, SR-683

Remember : We are in this program for the boys.......let them lead

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:37:28 -0500
From: "Troop 6 Scoutmaster" <troop6scoutmaster@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary

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I agree with Chas, and would suggest that you take the crew leader aside and
have a heart to heart with him ... he should know what happened and you can
correct it through him ... a leadership moment.

As an aside, I use a structured approach that guarantees that it is the
boys, not the advisors, not the parents that make the selections. I'll
provide a follow-up posting with the process I use, it may not be for
everyone, but it gets the job done.
>>> Chas said >>>

Remember : We are in this program for the boys.......let them lead

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D707513413-28022006>I agree with Chas, and would =
suggest that=20
you take the crew leader aside and have a heart to heart with him ... he =
should=20
know what happened and you can correct it through him ... a leadership=20
moment.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D707513413-28022006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D707513413-28022006>As an aside, I use a structured =
approach=20
that guarantees that it is the boys, not the advisors, not the parents =
that make=20
the selections. I'll provide a follow-up posting with the =
process I=20
use, it may not be for everyone, but it gets the job done.</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  id=3Drole_document><FONT lang=3D0 PTSIZE=3D"10" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><SPAN=20
  class=3D707513413-28022006> >>> Chas said=20
>>></SPAN><BR><BR><BR>Remember : We are in this program for =
the=20
  boys.......let them =
lead</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:37:37 EST
From: dtwj1020@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
Selection)

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I am a mom preparing to go to Philmont for the second time. This time I'll
have all three of my sons and my husband with me and the rest of our venture
crew. I think my opinion on treks is important, but still less important than
that of the kids in our crew. If I weren't going, my opinion would be far
less important --unless health and safety were an issue. If I thought my kids
were about to be sent on a trek without proper preparation or leadership, I'd
raise a ruckus. If the kids are well prepared and fit, and if the adults are
competent, the kids deserve a challenge. Can you do something to convince the
moms that their kids are ready for one? Why not invite them to see the kids
show off their skills or invite them on a really long, tough day hike? Let
the kids leave moms in their dust and see what happens.

Now a plea: I am intrigued by trek 35 and am eager to see Valle Vidal. My
husband posted to ask opinions on 30 v. 35, but only heard about 30. Can anyone

out there share experiences of trek 35? This is an extremely fit crew which
has already hiked the AT in Georgia and by June will have done the lower half
of the AT in NC.

Thanks in advance to all,

Susan

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:41:13 -0600
From: "R Fisher" <ghotier@texas.net>
Subject: RE: An Advisor's Quandary

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Thanks to all for their comments and suggestions. Let me add, that
apparently this was a somewhat impromptu crew meeting at one of the crew
member's house. I didn't even know it was happening and wasn't there to
run interference. The meeting did follow on the heels of a training
activity we had the previous weekend where I asked each member to
evaluate how they think they did in terms of specific and overall
performance and how they thought the crew did in terms of specific and
overall performance. This may have been the catalyst to get things
going.

As to the Mom thing - and I'm not picking on Mom's, Dad's do it too -
what really got me was that it was "Mom" that was telling me all the
things the crew accomplished at the meeting, not the crew members.
[This particular Mom is also our Troop treasurer and I needed a check
for a trip deposit - two of her sons are in the crew.] That caused me
to at least question who had been conducting the meeting. I may have
been reading more into it than was there.

I'm sure that I will have opportunities to chat with some of the guys
about their selection, in an informal, casual sort of way. What is kind
of sad is that we are going out three days early, in part to help make
the first few days more bearable, and their first choice covers only
slightly more than six miles in three days, with limited opportunities
to stretch it out. Of course that makes it much easier on the "senior"
members of the crew - bless their hearts!

As several of you have pointed out, it is the boys' decision, and if it
truly was, I will enjoy "tagging along".

Happy Trails,

Roy Fisher

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<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>Thanks to all for their comments =
and=20
suggestions. Let me add, that apparently this was a somewhat =
impromptu=20
crew meeting at one of the crew member's house. I didn't even know =
it was=20
happening and wasn't there to run interference. The meeting did =
follow on=20
the heels of a training activity we had the previous weekend where I =
asked each=20
member to evaluate how they think they did in terms of specific and =
overall=20
performance and how they thought the crew did in terms of specific and =
overall=20
performance. This may have been the catalyst to get things=20
going.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>As to the Mom thing - and I'm not =
picking on=20
Mom's, Dad's do it too - what really got me was that it was =
"Mom" that=20
was telling me all the things the crew accomplished at the meeting, not =
the crew=20
members. [This particular Mom is also our Troop treasurer and I =
needed a=20
check for a trip deposit - two of her sons are in the crew.] That =
caused=20
me to at least question who had been conducting the meeting. I may =
have=20
been reading more into it than was there.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>I'm sure that I will have =
opportunities to=20
chat with some of the guys about their selection, in an informal, casual =
sort of=20
way. What is kind of sad is that we are going out three days =
early, in=20
part to help make the first few days more bearable, and their first =
choice=20
covers only slightly more than six miles in three days, with limited=20
opportunities to stretch it out. Of course that makes it much =
easier on=20
the "senior" members of the crew - bless their hearts!</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>As several of you have pointed =
out, it is=20
the boys' decision, and if it truly was, I will enjoy "tagging=20
along".</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>Happy Trails,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D046301300-01032006>Roy Fisher</SPAN><FONT=20
id=3Drole_document></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:55:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Russell Ballard <russell.ballard@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary

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I concur with Mr. Clifton. I happen to have been on that trek with him in 2001
and I'll never forget how bad my feet hurt that day. A typical trek is just fine
for most of us.

  Russell Ballard
  Scoutmaster
  Troop 1987
  Cypress, Texas

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<DIV id=RTEContent>I concur with Mr. Clifton. I happen to have been on that trek
with him in 2001 and I'll never forget how bad my feet hurt that day. A typical
trek is just fine for most of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Russell
Ballard</DIV> <DIV>Scoutmaster </DIV> <DIV>Troop 1987</DIV> <DIV>Cypress,
Texas</DIV>
--0-1739566895-1141174514=:43455--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:39:52 -0800
From: "Garrett, Russ" <Russ.Garrett@bullivant.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se
lection)

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I don't know about everyone else's shakedown hikes, but ours were 2-3 days.
We didn't do just day hikes. The real tests for the shakedown hikes came in
backpacking as a group, learning to hike together (including hydration
breaks), set up camp, cook, clean, break camp and be on the trail for more
than two days at a time with the same people and to navigate using the map
and compass as a crew.

The parents clearly could see if their scout was not fit for our shakedown
trips. We climbed 2-3000 feet out of the Columbia River Gorge and then back
down over the course of each of our trips. One stretch of the PCT goes on
for about 7 miles of switchbacks down to the Columbia River like the trail
down from Tooth Ridge into base camp. Physical conditioning was more of an
issue, in our crew, for the adults. Mental conditioning was the key for the
scouts. They need to be prepared to work as a crew the entire time and to
be together on the trail for 10 days. We took Trek 30 and took a number of
side hikes including Hidden Valley and over Wilson's mesa. We also
navigated the ridges from Red Hills Camp to Schaffer's Pass. Lots of
vertical but beautiful views.

Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: dtwj1020@aol.com [mailto:dtwj1020@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:38 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
Selection)

I am a mom preparing to go to Philmont for the second time. This time I'll
have all three of my sons and my husband with me and the rest of our venture
crew. I think my opinion on treks is important, but still less important
than that of the kids in our crew. If I weren't going, my opinion would be
far less important --unless health and safety were an issue. If I thought my
kids were about to be sent on a trek without proper preparation or
leadership, I'd raise a ruckus. If the kids are well prepared and fit, and
if the adults are competent, the kids deserve a challenge. Can you do
something to convince the moms that their kids are ready for one? Why not
invite them to see the kids show off their skills or invite them on a really
long, tough day hike? Let the kids leave moms in their dust and see what
happens.

Now a plea: I am intrigued by trek 35 and am eager to see Valle Vidal. My
husband posted to ask opinions on 30 v. 35, but only heard about 30. Can
anyone out there share experiences of trek 35? This is an extremely fit crew
which has already hiked the AT in Georgia and by June will have done the
lower half of the AT in NC.

Thanks in advance to all,

Susan

"Bullivant.com" made the following annotations on 02/28/2006 05:46:58 PM
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*********************************************************
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<DIV><SPAN class=179221301-01032006>I don't know about everyone else's shakedown

hikes, but ours were 2-3 days. We didn't do just day hikes. The real
tests for the shakedown hikes came in backpacking as a group, learning to hike
together (including hydration breaks), set up camp, cook, clean, break camp and
be on the trail for more than two days at a time with the same people and to
navigate using the map and compass as a crew. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=179221301-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=179221301-01032006>The parents clearly could see if their scout

was not fit for our shakedown trips. We climbed 2-3000 feet out of the
Columbia River Gorge and then back down over the course of each of our
trips. One stretch of the PCT goes on for about 7 miles of switchbacks
down to the Columbia River like the trail down from Tooth Ridge into base
camp. Physical conditioning was more of an issue, in our crew, for the
adults. Mental conditioning was the key for the scouts. They
need to be prepared to work as a crew the entire time and to be together on the
trail for 10 days. We took Trek 30 and took a number of side hikes
including Hidden Valley and over Wilson's mesa. We also navigated the
ridges from Red Hills Camp to Schaffer's Pass. Lots of vertical but
beautiful views. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=179221301-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=179221301-01032006>Russ</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
  face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dtwj1020@aol.com
  [mailto:dtwj1020@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:38
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list philmont<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
  [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
  Selection)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial>
  <DIV>I am a mom preparing to go to Philmont for the second time. This time
  I'll have all three of my sons and my husband with me and the rest of our
  venture crew. I think my opinion on treks is important, but still
  less important than that of the kids in our crew. If I weren't
  going, my opinion would be far less important --unless health and
  safety were an issue. If I thought my kids were about to be sent on a trek
  without proper preparation or leadership, I'd raise a ruckus. If the kids are
  well prepared and fit, and if the adults are competent, the kids deserve a
  challenge. Can you do something to convince the moms that their kids are ready

  for one? Why not invite them to see the kids show off their skills or invite
  them on a really long, tough day hike? Let the kids leave moms in their dust
  and see what happens.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Now a plea: I am intrigued by trek 35 and am eager to see Valle
  Vidal. My husband posted to ask opinions on 30 v. 35, but only heard
  about 30. Can anyone out there share experiences of trek 35? This is an
  extremely fit crew which has already hiked the AT in Georgia and by June will
  have done the lower half of the AT in NC. </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks in advance to all,</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Susan</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

<P>"Bullivant.com" made the following annotations on 02/28/2006 05:46:58 PM<br>
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*********************************************************<br>
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legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:52:09 EST
From: DTADSEN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek
Selection)

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I agree, trek selection should be a crew decision with the primary voice
from the youth. However, the adults should have some input since they are part
of the crew and likely have a more realistic awareness of their limitations as
opposed to the "I can do anything" youth self-perspective. Don't want to
start a big issue there. MHO.

Speaking to the plea from "Mom" Susan......on the discussion of trek 30 vs
35 and the Valle. I believe 30 is overall more strenuous than 35. I had the
pleasure of doing trek 27, which is primarily all in the Valle, in 2005, and
have done 30 several years back when it was 21.

The 2005 treks book rates both treks within 2 miles of each other, so
distance should not be a big decision factor. Obviously you can add whatever
side-hikes you want to change the mileage. However, Trek 30 has more
significant
elevation changes than 35, which can be a decision factor. Trek 30 includes
Baldy, Phillips, with possibilities for Bear and Black, with Shaefers Peak and
The Tooth thrown in for good measure. Trek 35 includes only Shaefers and The
Tooth. An extremely fit crew should have no problem with either itinerary.

As for the Valle itself on trek 35, expect no major climbs. I believe the
biggest climb will be 400' coming out of Seally Canyon headed for Whiteman
Vega. Make sure you detour through Ring Place, it is a food pick-up for you.
Serious climbing does not start until after Old Camp when you traverse Hart
Peak
into Ponil and points beyond. You will see significant fire damage from Dean
Cutoff via Ponil, Sioux, Bent and up to the Dan Beard area. The trees look
like lots of black toothpicks, and shade is limited. The undergrowth is coming
back beautifully, water should not be a problem. From Dan Beard to Seally
fire damage is minimal and is not a factor after Seally. The search & rescue,
wilderness first aid program at Seally is top-drawer. Whiteman Vega is a large
meadow with limited shade, but has an excellent mountain biking program. The
Valle has lots of wide open vistas with great views of Baldy and Little
Costilla. Wildlife is abundant. Seally, Ring Place and Whiteman are served from

water buffalos, so plan accordingly.
The hike from Whiteman to Old Camp is approx. 11-12 miles long, and follows
the gentle down-slope of the North Ponil Creek from 8100' to 7100' through
the X-A ranch. A 1000' drop over 11-12 miles is real easy! You will pass
through the ruins of Ponil Park just north of the trail to Seally Canyon. It is
a
great place for a packs off break to explore the ruins and the cemetery.
Once your into Old Camp your back on Philmont property and many people have
shared their experiences of the trip from Old Camp to Ponil and on to your
last night at Upper Clarks Fork.
If you like less strenuous "vertical" hiking, with good distances, fewer
people, good programs, wide open spaces, and the possibility of seeing Elk and
Buffalo, the Valle is the place.

Darn, just read this post, and I sound like a Travel agent. Sorry, but I
could spend an entire trek in the Valle, if you haven't guessed. We all have
our
special places. <grin>
Feel free to contact me off-line for more info.

D. Tadsen
St. Charles, MO

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<DIV>I agree, trek selection should be a crew decision with the primary=
=20
voice from the youth. However, the adults should have some input since they=20=
are=20
part of the crew and likely have a more realistic awareness o=
f=20
their limitations as opposed to the "I can do anything" youth self-perspecti=
ve.=20
Don't want to start a big issue there. MHO.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Speaking to the plea from "Mom" Susan......on the discussion=20
of trek 30 vs 35 and the Valle. I believe 30 is overall more=20
strenuous than 35. I had the pleasure of doing trek 27, which is primar=
ily=20
all in the Valle, in 2005, and have done 30 several years back when it=20=
was=20
21.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The 2005 treks book rates both treks within 2 miles of each other,=
so=20
distance should not be a big decision factor. Obviously you can ad=
d=20
whatever side-hikes you want to change the mileage. However, Trek 30 has mor=
e=20
significant elevation changes than 35, which can be a decision factor. Trek=20=
30=20
includes Baldy, Phillips, with possibilities for Bear and Black, with=20
Shaefers Peak and The Tooth thrown in for good measure.=20
Trek 35 includes only Shaefers and The Tooth. An extremely fit cre=
w=20
should have no problem with either itinerary. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for the Valle itself on trek 35, expect no major climbs. I beli=
eve=20
the biggest climb will be 400' coming out of Seally Canyon headed for Whitem=
an=20
Vega. Make sure you detour through Ring Place, it is a food pick-up for=
=20
you. Serious climbing does not start until after Old Camp when you traverse=20=
Hart=20
Peak into Ponil and points beyond. You will see significant fire damage from=
=20
Dean Cutoff via Ponil, Sioux, Bent and up to the Dan Beard area. T=
he=20
trees look like lots of black toothpicks, and shade is limited. Th=
e=20
undergrowth is coming back beautifully, water should not be a problem. From=20=
Dan=20
Beard to Seally fire damage is minimal and is not a factor after Seally. The=
=20
search & rescue, wilderness first aid program at Seally is top-drawer.=20
Whiteman Vega is a large meadow with limited shade, but has an excellen=
t=20
mountain biking program. The Valle has lots of wide open vistas with great v=
iews=20
of Baldy and Little Costilla. Wildlife is abundant. Seally, Ring Place=20=
and=20
Whiteman are served from water buffalos, so plan accordingly.</DIV>
<DIV>The hike from Whiteman to Old Camp is approx. 11-12 miles long,=20
and follows the gentle down-slope of the North Ponil=20
Creek from 8100' to 7100' through the X-A ranch. A 1000'=
=20
drop over 11-12 miles is real easy! You will pass through the ruins of Ponil=
=20
Park just north of the trail to Seally Canyon. It is a great place for a pac=
ks=20
off break to explore the ruins and the cemetery.</DIV>
<DIV>Once your into Old Camp your back on Philmont property and many people=20=
have=20
shared their experiences of the trip from Old Camp to Ponil and on to y=
our=20
last night at Upper Clarks Fork.</DIV>
<DIV>If you like less strenuous "vertical" hiking, with good=20
distances, fewer people, good programs, wide open spaces, and the=20
possibility of seeing Elk and Buffalo, the Valle is the place.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Darn, just read this post, and I sound like a Travel agent.=20
Sorry, but I could spend an entire trek in the Valle, if you haven=
't=20
guessed. We all have our special places. <grin></DIV>
<DIV>Feel free to contact me off-line for more info.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>D. Tadsen</DIV>
<DIV>St. Charles, MO</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1141185129--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:41:34 -0600
From: "Joe Tavares" <j.tavares@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se
lection)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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We tend to mix them up, but my major intent with shakedown hikes is to build
in as many realistic camp setup/breakdown combinations combined with cooking
that I can. I know these young men can hike, but I have to make sure they
can get up and out of camp, with Leave No Trace in mind, fast enough to get
to the program after a long hike. Once there, I want to have dinner and to
relax, so I need them to set camp as efficiently as they break camp. That
is what we practice with our shakedowns. Sure, we have some mileage, mostly
for the advisors, but really it's all about the camp skillsets.

_____

From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Garrett, Russ
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se
lection)

I am a mom preparing to go to Philmont for the second time. This time I'll
have all three of my sons and my husband with me and the rest of our venture
crew. I think my opinion on treks is important, but still less important
than that of the kids in our crew. If I weren't going, my opinion would be
far less important --unless health and safety were an issue. If I thought my
kids were about to be sent on a trek without proper preparation or
leadership, I'd raise a ruckus. If the kids are well prepared and fit, and
if the adults are competent, the kids deserve a challenge. Can you do
something to convince the moms that their kids are ready for one? Why not
invite them to see the kids show off their skills or invite them on a really
long, tough day hike? Let the kids leave moms in their dust and see what
happens.

Now a plea: I am intrigued by trek 35 and am eager to see Valle Vidal. My
husband posted to ask opinions on 30 v. 35, but only heard about 30. Can
anyone out there share experiences of trek 35? This is an extremely fit crew
which has already hiked the AT in Georgia and by June will have done the
lower half of the AT in NC.

Thanks in advance to all,

Susan

"Bullivant.com" made the following annotations on 02/28/2006 05:46:58 PM
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1250">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D512473804-01032006>We tend to =
mix them up,=20
but my major intent with shakedown hikes is to build in as many =
realistic camp=20
setup/breakdown combinations combined with cooking that I can.  I =
know=20
these young men can hike, but I have to make sure they can get up and =
out of=20
camp, with Leave No Trace in mind, fast enough to get to the program =
after a=20
long hike.  Once there, I want to have dinner and to relax, so I =
need them=20
to set camp as efficiently as they break camp.  That is what we =
practice=20
with our shakedowns.  Sure, we have some mileage, mostly for the =
advisors,=20
but really it's all about the camp skillsets.</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> owner-philmont@troop47.com=20
[mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Garrett,=20
Russ<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Multiple=20
recipients of list philmont<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Philmont]: An =
Advisor's=20
Quandary (& Please Help with Trek Se lection)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D179221301-01032006>I don't know about everyone else's =
shakedown=20
hikes, but ours were 2-3 days.  We didn't do just day hikes.  =
The real=20
tests for the shakedown hikes came in backpacking as a group, learning =
to hike=20
together (including hydration breaks), set up camp, cook, clean, break =
camp and=20
be on the trail for more than two days at a time with the same people =
and to=20
navigate using the map and compass as a crew.   </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D179221301-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D179221301-01032006>The parents clearly could see if =
their scout=20
was not fit for our shakedown trips.  We climbed 2-3000 feet out of =
the=20
Columbia River Gorge and then back down over the course of each =
of our=20
trips.  One stretch of the PCT goes on for about 7 miles of =
switchbacks=20
down to the Columbia River like the trail down from Tooth Ridge =
into base=20
camp.  Physical conditioning was more of an issue, in our crew, for =
the=20
adults.  Mental conditioning was the key for the =
scouts.  They=20
need to be prepared to work as a crew the entire time and to be together =
on the=20
trail for 10 days.  We took Trek 30 and took a number of side hikes =
including Hidden Valley and over Wilson's mesa.  We also =
navigated the=20
ridges from Red Hills Camp to Schaffer's Pass.  Lots of =
vertical but=20
beautiful views.  </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D179221301-01032006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D179221301-01032006>Russ</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dtwj1020@aol.com=20
  [mailto:dtwj1020@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 28, 2006 =
4:38=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list =
philmont<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
  [Philmont]: An Advisor's Quandary (& Please Help with Trek=20
  Selection)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial>
  <DIV>I am a mom preparing to go to Philmont for the second time. This =
time=20
  I'll have all three of my sons and my husband with me and the rest of =
our=20
  venture crew. I think my opinion on treks is  important, but =
still=20
  less important than that of the kids in our crew. If I weren't=20
  going, my opinion would be far less important --unless =
health and=20
  safety were an issue. If I thought my kids were about to be sent on a =
trek=20
  without proper preparation or leadership, I'd raise a ruckus. If the =
kids are=20
  well prepared and fit, and if the adults are competent, the kids =
deserve a=20
  challenge. Can you do something to convince the moms that their kids =
are ready=20
  for one? Why not invite them to see the kids show off their skills or =
invite=20
  them on a really long, tough day hike? Let the kids leave moms in =
their dust=20
  and see what happens.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Now a plea: I am intrigued by trek 35 and am eager =
to see Valle=20
  Vidal. My husband posted to ask opinions on 30 v. 35, but =
only heard=20
  about 30. Can anyone out there share experiences of trek 35? This is =
an=20
  extremely fit crew which has already hiked the AT in Georgia and by =
June will=20
  have done the lower half of the AT in NC. </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks in advance to all,</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Susan</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT>
<P>"Bullivant.com" made the following annotations on 02/28/2006 05:46:58 =
PM<BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------<BR>Please=20
be advised that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax =
advice=20
contained in this e-mail, including attachments, is not intended to be =
used by=20
any person for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed =
by the=20
Internal Revenue=20
Service.<BR>*********************************************************<BR>=
This=20
e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contains =
information=20
belonging to Bullivant Houser Bailey, which is confidential and/or =
legally=20
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby =
notified that=20
any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in =
reliance on the=20
contents of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited. If you have =
received=20
this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply =
e-mail and=20
destroy all copies of the original=20
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR></P><BR>
<P>--<BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free =
Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/271 - Release =
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Re: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #1690