The Phil-list May_2003: RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest

From: Jackson, William J. <JacksoWi@tacom.army.mil>
Date: Thu May 01 2003 - 12:42:55 CDT

-----Original Message-----
From: philmont-request@troop47.com [mailto:philmont-request@troop47.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:01 AM
To: Philmont
Subject: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #583

philmont Digest Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:00:43 -0500 V01 #583

Today's topics:
     'RE: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection'
     'RE: [Philmont] - Philmont Interactive Ranger CD'
     'Re: [Philmont]: Philmont Interactive Ranger CD'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:51:10 -0400
From: "White, Billy Wayne (GECP, MABG, 037370)" <BILLY.WHITE@APPL.GE.COM>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------=_NextPartTM-000-2d5812cd-ec62-4ae2-a519-3dae75bf55ca
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2FE6C.C93964A0"

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2FE6C.C93964A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

Wow, good timing for this topic as I have been pondering doing exactly that,
having a rotating crew leader. I thought with my situation that was the way
to go but after reading these posts I can see the majority opinion differs.
Please offer some solutions or suggestions to my situation.

We have a provisional crew of 8 boys, (& 3 advisors) that come from all over
the country, literally. 1 from Wisconsin, 1 from Texas, the other 6 are from
Alabama, my home state, but cover the entire northern part of the state.
These six scouts come from 3 other troops, or 2 scouts from each troop. 2 of
these scouts are from my troop (and one of the other advisors as well) and
are the only ones I know or possibly will meet before we meet at Philmont.

Because we are from different areas of the state, scheduling any weekend
training activity that we all could attend has been difficult, if not
impossible. That and a whole host of other conflicts will prevent us from
doing much training as a group, if any at all. In fact the only time there
is a good chance of all the "in state" scouts / advisors getting together
is our last pack shakedown held on Tuesday night two weeks before we leave
for Philmont.

I am the only one of our crew who has been to Philmont; twice as an advisor.
Both times we were a crew made up of scouts from 2 different troops, but
troops in the same district who already knew each other. Both times it was
obvious to all who the crew leader should be and in fact wound up being.
This time I don't have that luxury. I have a scout in mind who would make
an excellent crew leader, IMHO, but I will not push that opinion on the
crew. Or at least don't want to. I believe without a doubt that if the rest
of the crew knew him that they would feel the same way. He is an Eagle
Scout and actually is the oldest scout in the crew. But that's the problem,
they don't and won't until we hit base camp on June 16th.

I've had another leader, a Philmont veteran, advise me to rotate the crew
leader and then after day 8(since we have 8 boys), let the crew select the
one who has done the best job for the remainder of the trek. I know this
plan has it's problems but seemed like a solution to me. That way when we
return home, each scout can truthfully say, "I was a crew leader of 616G2."
Of course there may be some of the guys who don't want the responsibility
and that's OK. I have mailed each scout a copy of the Crew Leader
Orientation sheet that came with our package so they would know what the job
required.

My idea was to start with "my choice" as crew leader and use the other scout
from my troop as assistant crew leader. In other words, I start with a
"known quality". The assistant crew leader would rotate to crew leader the
next day and have a rotation worked out on the duty roster so that another
scout would rotate to assistant crew leader. This way each scout who wanted
to do so, had an opportunity to be both crew leader and assistant crew
leader. The last day of rotation the first crew leader would be the
assistant crew leader. Then hold an election to see who will lead us on to
base camp the remaining part of our trek. It will take some planning. It
may take more advisor involvement up front or behind the scenes than normal
but after we got to Philmont, the scouts would take over and adjust the plan
as needed.

So, please let me hear what you would do in my situation or about my plan.

Thanks for your time, sorry for the long post!

Wayne White

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2FE6C.C93964A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange
Server version = 5.5.2654.19">
<TITLE>RE: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

Wow, good timing for this topic as I have been = pondering
doing exactly that, having a rotating crew leader.  I = thought with my
situation that was the way to go but after reading = these posts I can see
the majority opinion differs. Please offer some = solutions or suggestions
to my situation.

We have a provisional crew of 8 boys, (& 3 =
advisors) that come from all over the country, literally. 1 from =
Wisconsin, 1 from Texas, the other 6 are from Alabama, my home state, = but
cover the entire northern part of the state. These six scouts come = from 3
other troops, or 2 scouts from each troop. 2 of these scouts are = from my
troop (and one of the other advisors as well) and are the only = ones I know
or possibly will meet before we meet at = Philmont.

Because we are from different areas of the state, =
scheduling any weekend training activity that we all could attend has = been
difficult, if not impossible.  That and a whole host of other =
conflicts will prevent us from doing much training as a group, if any = at
all.  In fact the only time there is a good chance of all the =
"in state" scouts / advisors  getting together is our = last
pack shakedown held on Tuesday night two weeks before we leave for =
Philmont.

I am the only one of our crew who has been to = Philmont;
twice as an advisor. Both times we were a crew made up of = scouts from 2
different troops, but troops in the same district who = already knew each
other. Both times it was obvious to all who the crew = leader should be and
in fact wound up being.  This time I don't = have that luxury.  I
have a scout in mind who would make an = excellent crew leader, IMHO, but I
will not push that opinion on the = crew. Or at least don't want to. I
believe without a doubt that if the = rest of the crew knew him that they
would feel the same way.  He = is an Eagle Scout and actually is the
oldest scout in the crew. But = that's the problem, they don't and won't
until we hit base camp on June = 16th.

I've had another leader, a Philmont veteran, advise = me
to rotate the crew leader and then after day 8(since we have 8 = boys), let
the crew select the one who has done the best job for the = remainder of the
trek.  I know this plan has it's problems but = seemed like a solution
to me.  That way when we  return home, = each scout can truthfully
say, "I was a crew leader of = 616G2."  Of course there may
be some of the guys who don't = want the responsibility and that's OK. I
have mailed each scout a copy = of the Crew Leader Orientation sheet that
came with our package so they = would know what the job required.

My idea was to start with "my choice" as = crew
leader and use the other scout from my troop as assistant crew =
leader.  In other words, I start with a "known quality". =
The assistant crew leader would rotate to crew leader the next day and =
have a rotation worked out on the duty roster so that another scout = would
rotate to assistant crew leader.  This way each scout who = wanted to
do so, had an opportunity to be both crew leader and = assistant crew
leader. The last day of rotation the first crew leader = would be the
assistant crew leader.  Then hold an election to see = who will lead
us  on to base camp the remaining part of our trek. = It will take some
planning.  It may take more advisor involvement = up front or behind
the scenes than normal but after we got to Philmont, = the scouts would take
over and adjust the plan as needed.   =

So, please let me hear what you would do in my = situation
or about my plan.

Thanks for your time, sorry for the long post!

Wayne White

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2FE6C.C93964A0--

------=_NextPartTM-000-2d5812cd-ec62-4ae2-a519-3dae75bf55ca--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 06:14:47 -0400
From: "Dr. Bob Klein" <drbob@troop111.org>
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection

Seems to me you could do a lot worse than picking your "obvious choice",
and (much more importantly) sending a complete explanation of who and
why to all the Scouts and leaders. Detail out your reasoning, and also
explain that you presented the various alternatives (including the
Crew-Leader-for-a-Day option) to this List Server, and so your decision
has the input from many Philmont experienced Advisors. In essence, you
do not have the luxury of "doing it right", and you need an established
command and control stucture NOW, not on Day 8 1/2 of your trek - that's
pinning a "Kick Me Hard Here" poster on your butt.

IMHO, Scouts in this sort of situation do NOT mind having a Crew Leader
picked for them - what they mind is favoritism and/or capriciousness in
the selection process (for example, an Advisor picking his son when
everyone involved knows that the selected boy is a terrible candidate).
You also need to sensitize your selectee to the inherent differences
between appointments and elections - that is, he has to work harder to
make it all work. There is a huge difference between being a leader and
being a boss (something a lot of Scouts - and also Advisors - never
"get"), and the fate of your trek may well ride on your selectee's
ability to discern the differences and properly practice the former.

As far as other leadership "opportunities" go, you have had several
suggestions here to rotate the Naviguesser position day-by-day. Good
idea. Your Naviguesser can also be your Asst. Crew Chief for that day,
which will give him some of the experience you are looking for (in fact,
if your Crew Chief is smart, he will try to publically defer as many
decisions as reasonable to the Naviguesser while still quietly
maintaining overall authority; this is done by having the Crew Chief
discuss things in advance and then having the Asst. Crew Chief implement
the decisions). You can also establish your duty roster and rotate the
"Team Leader" for each sub-group every day. My duty roster (such as it
is) rotates one person per day out of each sub-group, so by Day III we
have one 2-day veteran, one 1-day veteran, and one novice, within each
group. This makes all your duty-roster jobs run a lot smoother versus
having everyone new each day. If you do this, then your 2-day veterans
automatically become your "Team Leaders". A little more pre-planning
and pre-organization work by you and your Crew Chief, but worthwhile.

Good luck to you.

- Dr. Bob

White, Billy Wayne (GECP, MABG, 037370) wrote:
>
> Wow, good timing for this topic as I have been pondering doing exactly
> that, having a rotating crew leader. I thought with my situation that
> was the way to go but after reading these posts I can see the majority
> opinion differs. Please offer some solutions or suggestions to my
situation.
>
> We have a provisional crew of 8 boys, (& 3 advisors) that come from
> all
> over the country, literally. 1 from Wisconsin, 1 from Texas, the other 6
> are from Alabama, my home state, but cover the entire northern part of
> the state. These six scouts come from 3 other troops, or 2 scouts from
> each troop. 2 of these scouts are from my troop (and one of the other
> advisors as well) and are the only ones I know or possibly will meet
> before we meet at Philmont.
>
> Because we are from different areas of the state, scheduling any
> weekend
> training activity that we all could attend has been difficult, if not
> impossible. That and a whole host of other conflicts will prevent us
> from doing much training as a group, if any at all. In fact the only
> time there is a good chance of all the "in state" scouts / advisors
> getting together is our last pack shakedown held on Tuesday night two
> weeks before we leave for Philmont.
>
> I am the only one of our crew who has been to Philmont; twice as an
> advisor. Both times we were a crew made up of scouts from 2 different
> troops, but troops in the same district who already knew each other.
> Both times it was obvious to all who the crew leader should be and in
> fact wound up being. This time I don't have that luxury. I have a
> scout in mind who would make an excellent crew leader, IMHO, but I will
> not push that opinion on the crew. Or at least don't want to. I believe
> without a doubt that if the rest of the crew knew him that they would
> feel the same way. He is an Eagle Scout and actually is the oldest
> scout in the crew. But that's the problem, they don't and won't until we
> hit base camp on June 16th.
>
> I've had another leader, a Philmont veteran, advise me to rotate the
> crew leader and then after day 8(since we have 8 boys), let the crew
> select the one who has done the best job for the remainder of the trek.
> I know this plan has it's problems but seemed like a solution to me.
> That way when we return home, each scout can truthfully say, "I was a
> crew leader of 616G2." Of course there may be some of the guys who
> don't want the responsibility and that's OK. I have mailed each scout a
> copy of the Crew Leader Orientation sheet that came with our package so
> they would know what the job required.
>
> My idea was to start with "my choice" as crew leader and use the other
> scout from my troop as assistant crew leader. In other words, I start
> with a "known quality". The assistant crew leader would rotate to crew
> leader the next day and have a rotation worked out on the duty roster so
> that another scout would rotate to assistant crew leader. This way each
> scout who wanted to do so, had an opportunity to be both crew leader and
> assistant crew leader. The last day of rotation the first crew leader
> would be the assistant crew leader. Then hold an election to see who
> will lead us on to base camp the remaining part of our trek. It will
> take some planning. It may take more advisor involvement up front or
> behind the scenes than normal but after we got to Philmont, the scouts
> would take over and adjust the plan as needed.
>
> So, please let me hear what you would do in my situation or about my
> plan.
>
> Thanks for your time, sorry for the long post!
>
> Wayne White

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:56:52 EDT
From: Eahmd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Crew Leader Selection

--part1_69.36f21a2c.2bc580a4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

go with your gut....use the Eagle as the crew leader. If he's as good as
you
say, the other guys in the crew with bond to him without any problem, and
the
crew will have a great time.

Everyone in the crew is a team. Yes, there is a crew leader, but that, in
reality, only matters for the most part in base camp and the porches at the
staff camps. I firmly believe, because I've seen it many times, that the
more
the "team" mentality exists, the less a crew leader "functions". My analogy

is adult leadership and junior leadership in a troop: the better the
junior
leadership functions, the less the adult leadership is needed. This is not
to say a crew leader doesn't have a role, they certainly do. However, the
goal in my mind is to get the crew really working together and if this is
accomplished, the crew leader's role can take more of a back seat, just like

the adult leaders.
Bottom line: go with your gut, get the crew to really be a crew, and the

decision about crew leaders will become much more of a minimal
consideration.
Decisions that result in fun things will become much more important, as
they
should be!! Have fun!!!!

Ed Hirsch, MD
treks: 68,70, lead advisor 98, 00; medical staff 02, contingent advisor 03

--part1_69.36f21a2c.2bc580a4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>go with your gut....use the Eagle as the crew
leader.&= nbsp; If he's as good as you say, the other guys in the crew with
bond to hi= m without any problem, and the crew will have a great time. 
 Everyone in the crew is a team.  Yes, there is a crew leader, but
that,= in reality, only matters for the most part in base camp and the
porches at=20= the staff camps. I firmly believe, because I've seen it many
times, that the= more the "team" mentality exists, the less a crew leader
"functions". = My analogy is adult leadership  and junior
leadership in a troop:&nbsp= ; the better the junior leadership functions,
the less the adult leadership=20= is needed.  This is not to say a crew
leader doesn't have a role, they=20= certainly do.  However, the goal
in my mind is to get the crew really w= orking together and if this is
accomplished, the crew leader's role can take= more of a back seat, just
like the adult leaders.      Bottom line: go with
your gut, get the crew to really be=20= a crew, and the decision about crew
leaders will become much more of a minim= al consideration.  Decisions
that result in fun things will become much= more important, as they should
be!!  Have fun!!!! Ed Hirsch, MD 
treks: 68,70, lead advisor 98, 00;  medical staff 02, contingent
adviso= r 03</HTML>

--part1_69.36f21a2c.2bc580a4_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:43:43 -0700
From: "Bruce Wilson" <bawjen@attbi.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont] - Philmont Interactive Ranger CD

-----Original Message-----
> From: philmont-request@troop47.com
[mailto:philmont-request@troop47.com]
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:18:21 -0500
> From: "Chris Summers" <SummersCreative@kingwoodcable.com>
> Subject: Philmont Interactive Ranger CD

> My first impressions were that it was a little hard to get going.

True for me too. In fact, it still hasn't run on my laptop (Windows 2000).
Maptrails tech support is sending me another CD, after a few failed attempts
at registering it over the phone.

> My copy has crashed several times or only partly opened... blank
map...

Same things happened to me with the 2001 version. The program uses tons of
memory, and that causes problems. Quit/Restart makes it work again.

> "Profile" seems to bring up nothing.
> YOF
> Chris in Houston

To make "Profile" work, you must click on the distance button above the map
display (choose the button with the jagged line). That turns your cursor
into a pencil shape when located inside the map window. Left-click and drag
while still holding down the left button, anywhere you like in the map. When
you release the left button, a prompt will ask if you want to continue the
path. Select "no" if your path is complete, or select "yes" if you want to
add another segment. Adding a segment allows your path to cover more than
one screen. Anyhow, when your path is drawn to your satisfaction, choose
"no" and then select the "Profile" tab. You'll see the altitude profile of
the path you just traced.

I like to left-click on a line in the Itinerary tab (e.g. day3). That turns
the day3 line red, and the map gets redrawn with that day's trail also
highlighted in red. I follow the red path with the mouse, after clicking on
the jagged-line button, as described above. That gives me the day3 hike,
which shows up in the Profile tab in more detail than shown in the "Trail
Profile" overview. It's a bit clunky, and especially hard to follow
switchbacks with the mouse, but it gives a good idea of the day's hike. Too
bad the "Profile" tab doesn't get generated automatically when a day in the
Itinerary tab is selected.

I think it's a good tool for scoping out the treks, and agree it could use
some improvements.

--Bruce Wilson Troop 999 ASM Livermore, CA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:40:14 -0600
From: "Shelleyb" <shelleyb@cimarron.springercoop.com>
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Philmont Interactive Ranger CD

I am sorry about all of the problems with the Interactive Ranger CD that you
have experienced. We did go through quite a rush job to get it here in time
for the mailing and then after it had gone out we found out that when you
hit the send button you could not get it to work. What you need to do to
activate is have the software ID number available and go to
www.maptrails.com and follow the Philmont link. They will now be able to
activate your demo automatically. If you have any problems at all you need
to call me at Philmont and let me know so that we can take care of the
problem. By the way we have had a great response once people have started
working the demo and have sold over 100 copies!!

Shelley O'Neill
Director - Tooth of Time Traders
----- Original Message -----
From: "the Stanley's" <stanley@myvine.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Philmont Interactive Ranger CD

>
> I had a similar experience as Chris in attempting to get into the
Philmont
> Interactive Ranger CD.
> Only I stilll haven't been able to access the program.
> I've sent two emails to the address on their webe site with no
> response.
>
> According to their web site all you have to do is enter the disc code
> and
it
> genreates a 20 day access code.
> Well it hasn't worked yet and they don't seem to give a hoot.
>
> Will I buy it? No thanks. I'll use my copy for target practice.
>
> Philmont would be better served by not sending it out and saving the
> postage.
>
>
> Gary Stanley
> 2003 Advisor 801-I
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Summers" <SummersCreative@kingwoodcable.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 9:18 AM
> Subject: [Philmont]: Philmont Interactive Ranger CD
>
>
>
> " My first impressions were that it was a little hard to get going. It
> installed with no problem but registering it was something else. There
were
> no instructions packaged with it and I repeatedly tried to register
online
> via a message prompt and got an error message saying the Server could
> not be reached. I finally opened my browser and went to the companies
> website
and
> searched for answers there. You are given two options, one is to get
> a 20-day trial and the other is to purchase it outright. I wondered
> if I
did
> the 20-day trial would it give me the option to buy it at the end (it
> has no further instructions). I finally called someone in sales who
> explained it to
> me and yes it will give you the option later. I eventually found out how
to
> get the "key" code to get the software working and spent some time
> with
it
> yesterday."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
> at http://usscouts.org/lists/ Listserv Commands at
> http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
> Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
> List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
> List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
> -------------------------------------------------------
> As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
> Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
> loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,
> thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of philmont Digest V01 #583
*******************************

-------------------------------------------------------
Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org
Subscribe/Unsubscribe at http://usscouts.org/lists/
Listserv Commands at http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
-------------------------------------------------------
Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------
As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
-------------------------------------------------------

Received on Thu May 1 13:43:58 2003

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed Jul 26 2006 - 12:00:06 CDT

RE: [Philmont] - philmont Digest - V01 #583