RE: [Philmont]: Co-ed/Venture complications

Be ready for this one as I am sure it is going to burn up the line. In 2001
I attended Venturing week at Philmont where the Venturing Youth Protection
program was roled out for all of us. As the YPT instructor for my district
I was quite interested. The rules explained go against the BSA's own videos
about there should never be more than a three year difference between
individuals sleeping in the same tent who were not family. So according to
Venturing policy, a 14 yr. old can sleep in the same tent with a
non-relative 20 yr. old. But in BSA policy 17 yr. old Scout cannot sleep in
the same tent as his 18 yr. old brother even though they might share the
same bedroom at home.

But the biggest laugh of the evening was the response to why a husband and
wife could not sleep in the same tent. It was felt that in the outdoors
they might attempt to do something that should be reserved for the bedroom.
This would be unfair to those around them who might hear the "fun" they were
having. They made no distinction between two 20 year Venturers married to
each other or the adult Venturing leaders. This made one veteran Scout Exec
to muse that he and his wife had spent many a night together in a tent
during Camporees, etc., and they didn't realize that they were in violation
of BSA policy. There are two different BSA policies regarding who can sleep
with one another -- one applies to Venturing; the other to everyone else.

What appears below is a humorous response to this whole situation written by
Calvin Gray of Georgetown, TX last summer and posted on this listserver. It
points out the inconsistencies of BSA policies and how you can get a
different interpretation. So if at first you don't find the answer you
like, keep searching. You will eventually get something that fits your
situation.

Wayne Rascati
Crew 105, Los Padres Council
Santa Barbara, CA
2005 Trek 725-I and 2002 Trek 805-Q

Calvin writes:

In a "perfect" world, each Philmont backpacking crew would have 10 youth
members and 2 adult members. That would allow the maximum number of youth
to participate in the Philmont experience. However, it is best to "be
prepared" for the unexpected as losing that second adult can necessitate a
whole lot of scrambling in order to meet Philmont's rules on 2-deep
leadership.

My personal experience in helping to arrange several trips to Philmont for
our troop during the past 15 years has taught me it is best to try and have
at least 3 adults age 21 or over in each crew. Having an 18-20 year old is
nice too as this individual can substitute as the "second adult" if needed,
or he can be listed on the roster as a youth crew member too.
There are other crew dynamics to consider. Some of them are as follows.

A Philmont backpacking crew can have UP TO 4 adults age 21 or over. The
minimum crew size is 7 while the maximum crew size is 12. A crew must have
a majority of youth members so here are the MAXIMUM number of adults age 21
or over that can be in various crew sizes:
    Crew of 7 = 4 youth members/3 adult members
    Crew of 8 = 5 youth members/3 adult members
    Crew of 9 = 5 youth members/4 adult members
    Crew of 10 = 6 youth members/4 adult members
    Crew of 11 = 7 youth members/4 adult members
    Crew of 12 = 8 youth members/4 adult members

Each Philmont crew must have at least 2 adult advisors. If the Philmont
crew is from a troop, at least 1 member must be an adult age 21 or over
while the other adult can be age 18-20. As stated above, the maximum number
of adult crew members age 21 or over is 4.

Venturers are considered youth members until age 21, and that's how Philmont
treats them as far as Youth Protection rules are concerned. A co-ed
Philmont crew must have an adult female advisor at least age 21 AND an adult
male advisor at least age 21.

As far as Youth Protection guidelines, a 15 year old Venturer can share a
tent with a 20 year old Venturer of the same sex. But a 17 year old Boy
Scout cannot share a tent with his 18 year old brother who happens to be an
Assistant Scoutmaster.

And now, a little humor.......

Consider this scenario with a parent having three sons registered in a
troop, ages 15, 17 & 18 and going to Philmont this coming summer. The
parent asks the Scoutmaster several questions about tenting arrangements and
showering facilities at Philmont.

Parent: Can the 15 year old tent with his 17 year old brother?

SM: Yes.

Parent: Can the 15 year old tent with his 18 year old brother?

SM: No, but he might be able to do so if you sign a legal document making
the 18 year old the 15 year old's guardian during the trek.

Parent (with strange look on his face): Okay, I'll consider that.

Parent: Can the 17 year old tent with his 18 year old brother?

SM: No, but we can try the guardian thing again.

Parent: But they share a room at home.

SM: They can't do that at Philmont.

Parent (with an even stranger look on his face): Okay, let's move on.

SM: Fine.

Parent: Well, with whom can the 18 year old tent?

SM: Any other adult leader.

Parent: You mean my 18 year son can't tent with his 17 year old brother but
he can tent with a 50 year old adult?

SM: That's right.

Parent (after shaking head several times): Okay, one other question about
tenting.

SM: Okay.

Parent: The 17 year old turns 18 during the trek; what happens then?

SM: Then, he'll have to move into a tent with an adult.

Parent: How about with his older brother?

SM: Fine.

Parent: So, if the 17 year old starts out tenting with his 15 year old
brother, he will have to move in with his 18 year old brother or another
adult when he turns 18?

SM: Correct.

Parent: Okay, let me think about this for a few days. I believe I
understand but I'll let you know if I have additional questions. Can we move
on to showering arrangements?

SM (with great anticipation): By all means.

Parent: Can the 15 year old shower with his 17 year old brother?

SM: Yes.

Parent: Can the 15 year old shower with his 18 year old brother?

SM: No.

Parent: How about if we do the guardian thing?

SM (after thinking a bit): No, I don't think so.

Parent: Can the 15 year old shower with his 17 year old brother and other 17
year old boys in the Philmont crew?

SM: Yes.

Parent: But he can't shower with his 18 year old brother?

SM: That's correct.

Parent: Can the 17 year old shower with his 18 year old brother?

SM: No.

Parent: If we do the guardian thing?

SM: No.

Parent: But they go to church camp and shower together there; why not at
Philmont?

SM: Can't do it at Philmont; BSA Youth Protection rules.

Parent: But they are on the same baseball team at school and they shower
together after each practice and game.

SM: Can't do it at Philmont; BSA Youth Protection rules.

Parent: So, whom can the 18 year old shower with?

SM: Any other male camper at least age 18.

Parent: Even you?

SM: Yes.

Parent: And other 50 year old adult males?

SM: Yes.

Parent: I think I'll save some time and not ask about the showering
arrangements after the 17 year old turns 18.

SM: Thanks!

Parent (while walking away and muttering): Thanks for the info, I believe my
17 and 18 year old sons will forget about going to Philmont with the troop
and go with their Venturing Crew instead. He turns around and asks the
Scoutmaster, "Do you know if Venturing has similar rules on tenting and
shower arrangements?"

SM (while running away): Aaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeee!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of j.tavares@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: Co-ed/Venture complications, was 4 MAN TENTS

Correct me if I'm wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but isn't is
verboten for husband and wife to be in the same tent at Philmont (for some
reason I think it's a scouting rule). I believe it's more appropriate for
the wife & daughter to share tent than to have a mixed tent, particularly in
Venture Crew...

--
Joe Tavares
NOTICE: This email is only intended
for the recipient and not legally
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