Michael brings up a good point. Over time interests change. I have watched
this happened with the Philmont Treks that our Troop and Venture Crew
participated in in 2002 and 2004 (2 crews each). We were over subscribed
initially and with the initial numbers we were thinking that adding another
crew would help out.
What we found was 21 months is too long in advance to plan an activity such
as this. Both the youth and adult members felt this way. A year or less
would have been a more reasonable amount of time. This would in all
likelihood reduced the number of drop outs.
In 2002 we had an initial 32 people on the list and we found ourselves down
to 15 trekkers and struggled to get the number to 19. Playing armchair
quarterback there were several reasons that contributed to the decline in
numbers: Impact from 9/11 (4 kids were pulled out by concerned moms "my son
is not going to fly"), economics, relocations, lost interest, etc. 2004 was
completely different - we had a co-ed crew going out there and the primary
reasons for the drop outs were social - boy/girl friends, didn't want to
miss all the action back at home, etc...
I also see the arguments for having the 21 month wait, collecting $,
gathering equipment, training, team building, etc. I know a few of you will
also say that participation agreements and contracts will reduce the number
of dropouts, but they didn't really help us in the past two treks.
I think that if our Crew or Troop gets in for 2006, we're going to alter the
training schedule slightly to include a few of the more challenging hikes in
the front of the schedule. Hopefully this will weed out a few of the people
who would be on the fence. We're located outside of Boston, and use the
White Mountains of New Hampshire for a number of our shakedown hikes - One
of those hikes was last January, were the night time temperatures were minus
20 degrees (F). Our biggest challenge on this trip were snowshoes and
frozen water bottles, all Philmont participants on this trip continued with
the other practice and shakedown hikes and made it to their Philmont
adventure.
So I guess I don't know what the magic answer is to retain a full crew,
other than having a long waiting list...
Regards,
Tom Fitzpatrick
----Original Message Follows----
From: Michael_J_Conkey@nbc.gov
Reply-To: philmont@troop47.com
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont <philmont@troop47.com>
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: New Reservation System
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:14:22 -0700
As one with experience from Jamboree, you cannot judge INITIAL interest in
a special activity, but the final number going. Here in Denver, we had 5
Jamboree contingent troops in 2001. At the very beginning, all five troops
were filled and a hefty waiting list was formed. As a newbie, I was
thinking, we need National to approve a couple more troops for the Denver
Area. But, as the months go by, people's initial interest waned, and kids
and leaders began dropping.... We moved through the waiting list. By the
last three months, we were out there beating the bushes to round up enough
kids to fill the troops. I think the best measure of how many treks a
council can support lies in whether each and every trek that they sign up
for has a full contingent of 12 participants. YIS. Mike ('76, '02 & '04).
"Joe Tavares"
<j.tavares@comcas To: Multiple
recipients of list philmont
t.net> <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent by: cc:
owner-philmont@tr Subject: RE: [Philmont]:
New Reservation System
oop47.com
11/01/2004 11:48
PM
Please respond to
philmont
Reducing the number of intervals is one way, but perhaps another way would
be to limit the number of crews you are allowed to take in a given year.
As it stands, a troop can ask for as many crews as they wish, no limits.
Anecdotally, I know of troops all over town (Dallas area) that overestimate
the participation for one reason or another and fill the left over crews
from other troops around town or with scouts they know in other parts of
the country. Lots of reasons, cost, illness, weight, band, etc. But many
are predictable and can be anticipated. It would not be a significant
technical problem to maintain a count of eligible Scouts from each Troop
and dole out limits on crews accordingly. I truly believe if they did that
one simple thing, then most Troops would be able to get their crews every
other year.
On another note, as far as Council Contingents are concerned, our council
runs a fish-bowl lottery. Judging by the crowd on the steps of the Council
office, I believe they do not have a large enough allocation. Perhaps the
crew limits could effect a positive change here too.
Joe Tavares
Troop 728, Richardson, TX
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Dr. Charles Goodwin
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:35 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: New Reservation System
I firmly believe the answer is to increase the number of years to every
three or perhaps four years. More and more people want to go, and it gets
more and more difficult to get in. My troop has gone every 4 years --
1992, 1996, 2000. In 2004 we had close to 30 calling, could not get a
reservation and were 354 on the waiting list. I took the council
contingent and worked in all of the boys from my troop and every other boy
I became aware of with getting permission to bump my crew up to 14 (12 boys
and 2 adults), but had to leave out most of the adults. I really just
can't see some troops going every other year while others can't get in at
all. The solution seems so simple.
Charles Goodwin, MD, Scoutmaster Troop 236, Kettering, OH
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Lindtveit
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: New Reservation System
I agree Phil,
However, there is a slight problem with the math. If they give everyone
who doesn't get a slot this year, a 'chit' for next year, then next year
will be filled up with this years applicants, so no new units will get to
go next year, that will make twice as many units with a chit for the
following year, each year it get worse and worse. (I'm over simplifying
here, but you get the point.) In spirit I fully agree, but kicking
everyone up the priority ladder will only cause problems down the line.
There should be some way that can work. I wonder how many would complain
if they said you could only have a trek every 3 years (excepting council
contingents)? I continue to be baffled by the Advisors I ran into who
referred to their trek "last year", and wondered how so many seem to do
that.
Perhaps they could take 300 units each year that have the most chits, or
something like that?
I attended this year as a fill-in for another local unit. I am now
applying to bring my own boys in '06. My unit has never had a Philmont
trek in it's 48 year history, I just hope I can score one in the next 2
years, so that my current 'crop' doesn't miss out.
For the time being, I guess all I can do is sit and wait. Some will win
and some will lose. The waiting is the tough part, then the fun starts, I
hope.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-Philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Phil Brown
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:33 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list Philmont
Subject: RE: [Philmont]: New Reservation System
I really like the new system. Of course we were winners and are
preparing for our trip next summer (701M).
I still believe there needs to be some weighting based on the number of
consecutive years a Troop has attempted to get a trek and failed.
Somehow, they should move up the list.
Phil Brown
From: owner-Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-Philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Dunckle, Jeffrey B (US SSA)
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:33 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list Philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: New Reservation System
I have a question about the new system. I have caught bits and pieces of
discussion on this but do not remember this item specifically. The
question is, does the system keep track of a troop's failure rate and
increase your "weight" or chance of being selected the longer you go
without getting a reservation? With Philmont being in such high demand,
a system like this would seem like the only fair way to approach it.
When I called in the fall of 2000, I guess I was very lucky as I got
through in about 15 minutes and got the reservation we wanted. At least
that was proactive in that I was physically doing something to try to get
in. Now, other than following the every-other-year rule, what are the
chances of being selected if it is a random drawing each year? If it is
not already in place, having your unit's chances improve the longer you
go without getting a reservation would be a way to improve the system and
help ensure that everyone eventually gets their chance, say within 2-3
years of initially trying.
Jeff Dunckle
Troop 180
Philmont '02
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Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
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Received on Tue Nov 2 08:37:19 2004
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