RE: [Philmont]: Read the entire comment before reacting

Amanda, James, et al,

>From the standpoint of grassroots efforts to improve LNT awareness and
practices, I agree completely. I do have to wonder what the scout leaders
were doing while their charges were out shooting up the place with potato
cannons. It doesn't take an LNT Master Trainer to identify inappropriate
behavior in a scouting environment leading to an unsafe environment. I
don't even think this an LNT issue, I think it's a Scout Spirit issue. In
addition, I think every single one of the leaders on that event should have
been required to take live remedial training on Youth Protection in order to
keep their cards.

What I will comment on, as it relates to LNT, though, is the challenge for
those of us who are trying to become better trained in LNT. One of our
council trainers, at a recent leader training event, identified an LNT
training opportunity coming to our area in the late winter. In order to
participate in this event, parenthetically being given as I understand it by
an LNT Master Trainer, each Scouter will have to ante up $800 for the
training (I do think it's 5 days). Assuming a class of 10, I think we can
rule out any comments about the trainer's travel expenses, pay, materials,
etc. as the reason behind all of this significant investment. I believe
$800 represents the most expensive scout-related training I will ever have
to pay for, including Wood Badge.

In order for a grass roots effort to succeed, the grass roots have to be
able to afford the water and fertilizer it takes for them to successfully
grow the program council by council. I'm not yet sure why it will be so
expensive for that training, but it certainly make me pause to wonder how I
could get similar training some other way.

I guess, though we should get back on topic and profusely thank Coop Wright
for, again, providing the definitive word on Advising a Philmont Crew. That
represents dedication. And Coop, I too got caught up in the work and travel
thing and I apologize for missing your window to contribute the segment you
asked me for. I hope I can get it to you in time for your next revision.
Mea Culpa.

Joe Tavares
Troop 728, Richardson TX

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com] On
Behalf Of Amanda
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 6:00 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: Re: [Philmont]: Read the entire comment before reacting

This is only going to be changed unit by unit. I have run into reluctance in
many areas for the Scouts to be there.

I work with the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts in Northern Virginia and am
also a Leave No Trace Master Trainer.

I am amazed at the number of units that do not practice what they teach.

They know the rules but don't feel that they apply to them. So we still need
lots of education.

I also have no answers but I keep working one group at a time to hopefully
make it better.

Amanda Sass
Scouting in Northern VA
GSCNC Outdoor Trainer
LNT Master Trainer

----- Original Message -----
From: "James H. Moss" <bsa.rec.law@gmail.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list philmont" <philmont@troop47.com>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 1:46 PM
Subject: [Philmont]: Read the entire comment before reacting

>
> I was having lunch with several professional lobbyist who work
> on/for/against Federal Land Management Agencies (BLM, NPS, USFS, F&W).
> The
> subject of the BSA came up and they all started complaining loudly. In
> fact
> I have known most of them for years and this was the loudest any of them
> had
> ever been. They all proceeded to tell me horror stories that an agency had
> been involved with a BSA unit. They all agreed the federal land management
> agencies at the land manage level hated the BSA. Most stated for some land
> units the BSA was the number 1 problem they dealt with. I of course
> attempted to defend and was shot down hard and fast. (And guys, I don't
> give up to easily, too many trials but I lost fast, in fact I lost
> credibility with several of the people for defending the BSA.)
>
> The National Park Service has a website called the morning report. The
> morning report publishes the news of the NPS each morning as well as makes
> announcements. The NPS morning report today had this.
>
> Joshua Tree National Park (CA)
> PVC Potato Cannons Seized from Scout Troop
>
> On the morning of Saturday, October 29th, park employees received reports
> of
> a disturbance from visitors who were camping in the group campsites at
> Indian Cove Campground. Protection rangers responded. During the
> subsequent
> investigation, the rangers confiscated seven cannons constructed from PVC
> piping which were being used to shoot potatoes into the area of the
> campground through the use of a gas propellant. The cannons ranged in size
> from two to six feet in length and are defined as destructive devices
> under
> the California penal code. Other miscellaneous PVC piping, which was used
> for making the potato cannons, and three five-pound bags of potatoes were
> also confiscated. A local California Boy Scout troop occupied the site.
> The
> site permit holder was issued a violation notice for possession/use of
> weapons. The Scoutmaster and group leaders were given multiple verbal
> warnings for disorderly conduct, sanitation/refuse violations, food
> storage
> violations, and miscellaneous traffic offenses. [Submitted by Judy
> Bartzatt, Chief Ranger]
>
> http://data2.itc.nps.gov/morningreport/
>
> Normally if someone derides the BSA I argue but don't worry. This group
> has
> me worried. By that I mean, these are professionals. All have testified
> before congress several times. All have the ability to pick up the phone
> and
> have any person in at any level in a land management agency answer. These
> are important people. Not one of them was willing to argue on behalf of
> the
> BSA because they knew the land managers would not be receptive. None even
> had their kids in a scout program because of their feelings about the BSA
> because of Federal land managers. Not because of the religious or other
> issues, only because in their experience the BSA is a very destructive and
> out of control organization.
>
> This conversation occurred 3 weeks ago and I have been mulling it since.
> The
> NPS morning report brought this back to the forefront and after 3 weeks, I
> have no great answers.
>
> So I turn to you.
>
> We need to do a better job. I understand how hard it is. (My father was a
> DE
> while I was growing up and I was one also for a couple of years.) I
> understand how hard it is to recruit volunteers and then get them trained.
>
> At the same time, the federal land management agencies are restricting
> access to federal lands. You probably have not seen it, but that is why
> the
> group of lobbyist and I get together every couple of weeks (One of the
> lobbyist and I have been working on this for ten years). In the past
> summer
> USFS denied access to college programs in Oregon, North and South
> Carolina.
> By this I mean any organized credit or non-credit group from any state
> college in these areas cannot get on federal land without being issued a
> ticket or being arrested. At Yellowstone and Rocky Mtn National Park if a
> university van pulls up to the gate they are told to turn around and
> denied
> access.
>
> Believe me when I say, if the legal issues that the land managers employ
> to
> stop university programs existed they would use them against BSA units.
>
> So what can we do.
>
> I've been thinking about additional LNT segments. (Every land management
> agency is a signor on LNT and has someone on the LNT board of directors.
> It
> is a big issue for them.) Another training program (what a mess.)
>
> You guys have any ideas.
>
> Jim
>
> James H. Moss, JD, Editor
> Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Review:
> http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/law_review/index.html
> The Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Reviews are publications for members
> of
>
> the Outdoor Recreation, Adventure Travel, Hospitality and Fitness
> Industry.
> For more information email me at: lawreview@snewsnet.com
>
> Outdoor Law Specific Email: outdoor.law@gmail.com
> Fitness Law Specific Email: fitness.law@gmail.com
>
> Instructor: Ski Area Operations, Ski Area Risk Management Course Colorado
> Mountain College
> Email: jmoss@coloradomtn.edu
> http://www.coloradomtn.edu/programs/sao/home.html
>
> Adjunct Professor: The Department of Parks, Recreation, and Tourism,
> University of Utah
> Outdoor Recreation Risk Management, Insurance and Law
> http://www.health.Utah.edu/prt/ Info: outdoor.law@gmail.com
>
> PO Box 16743
> Golden, CO 80402
> 303-807-2275
> Personal Email: jhmoss@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
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cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
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