The Phil-list Nov_2005: RE: [Philmont]: Philmont Council contin

From: Troop 6 Scoutmaster <troop6scoutmaster@comcast.net>
Date: Thu Nov 17 2005 - 20:55:23 CST

The original point of the post was to share what I'd learned about the
council side of the process, not to necessarily endorse it, but rather to
provide some insight into the process. hilmont has improved both the
lottery process and other processes year over year ... it isn't perfect, but
its better. For instance going to the web made it much easier for units to
easily get in the lottery, the old phone game favored those with many
committed leaders or autodialers. I trust that over time other improvements
will be made so that more can experience Philmont.

That said:

With regard to point 1, I believe that the Philmont experience should be
enjoyed by all that desire to do so. Council contingents is but one of the
many services provided by councils to their units. The goal is to make the
Philmont experience accessible to as many as possible. I never would have
gotten to Philmont as a kind if it had not been for a council contingent, in
turn I never would have had the love of the place that I do and the 21 youth
and adults that I took in '04 wouldn't have had the experience. Of those,
one dad will return with another of his sons, one will be on staff in '06
and most would love to go again ... the beat goes on.

We agree on number 2. If councils could simply make the opportunity
available and service the real demand year to year they wouldn't have to
resort to the tactics I described to deal with cyclic demand.

We agree on number 3. But given that state of number 2, it happens. My
council was delighted we could step up, and we would have even if we had
obtained a position or favorable (>150) lottery number.

I find your position on number 4 a bit idealistic. Councils, at least my
council which is fairly affluent, simply do not have the bandwidth or
volunteers to do this. They do offer the services of the HA committee and
its pre-trek logistics (shake down weekend, etc) to thos that desire it but
they do not, and cannot realistically provide logitical support or training.
Fact is all of the HA logitics for PSR, NT and DH are done by volunteers ...

We can agree on number 5, as it supports my number 1.

Thanks

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-philmont@troop47.com [mailto:owner-philmont@troop47.com]On
Behalf Of Jack Thornton
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:21 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list philmont
Subject: [Philmont]: Philmont Council contingents [opposing views]

Jim,

Let me see if I understand your points exactly.

1. Concil contingents are around because they get
many scouts to Philmont.

2. The number of participants a council gets can vary
year to year, but getting significantly more slots
year over year is difficult.

3. By moving a troop contingent into a council
contingent and vacating your spot in the waiting list
you make it more likely that somebody else gets a shot
at going.

4. A council contingent can provide resources and
help with logistics for units who may have the
interest in going, but not the leadership with the
skills to handle the logistics.

That seems reasonable, yet I still can't quite come to
your point of view, and I'll try to address the parts
that bother me point by point.

1. Unit contingents also get many scouts to Philmont.
2. The 'Use it or lose it' setup has never sat well
with me. It encourages waste instead of thrift. For
example, when talking about the federal government and
their budget - you have departments every year buying
things they don't need at the end of the year so that
their budget doesn't get cut for the next year.

In this case, it may be taking second and third timers
to fill slots. Yet, if the spaces [contingents] were
freed up for unit contingents, you would likely see
more first-timers going instead. This isn't something
councils can do anything about, and it is natural to
play for the most advantage possible according to the
rules.

3. Moving your unit crew to the council contingent
does effectively move-up the crews behind yours in the
waiting list. But isn't it like cutting ahead of
those ahead of you on the waiting list?

Now, these numbers are out of thin air, as the only
time I've done Philmont we weren't on the waiting
list. Imagine that you are number 250 on the waiting
list. Due to cancellations, the first 175 crews on
the list will get to go. By you joining the council
contingent, you get to go when you would not have. It
also means that one fewer crew on the waiting list
gets to go. So, effectively, number 250 gets to go
when 176 does not - skipping ahead of 75 crews.

With there being over 300 councils, if only half the
councils do that with 1 crew, that is a good number of
units that get pre-empted.

4. This is the second best argument for council
contingents (the first being that they allow boys from
multiple units go who couldn't otherwise). Yet, even
this falls short in my mind. Unit leaders who don't
have the skills to coordinate a cross-country trip AND
REALIZE IT (not much can be done if they don't) should
be able to turn to their support
(Council/District/UC/etc.) to find a way to get it
done. If that support and those resources don't
exist, there is a bigger problem.

5. What do I think should be done instead? I don't
want to see council contingents done away with - when
they do combine boys from multiple units that would
not otherwise have even the chance of going, council
contingents are a golden resource.

I would like to see there not to be a penalty for not
using spaces for unit crews (I hope that sentence
makes sense). A one year drop should not cause
problems for the future. This however, is an issue
that has to be handled at the Philmont side and not
the individual councils.

Instead, it would be nice if there was a way to help
ensure that as many crews as possible are at 12 -
through a process at the council level of pairing boys
with other units that don't have full crews.

Respectfully,

Jack
--- Troop 6 Scoutmaster
<troop6scoutmaster@comcast.net> wrote:

> Jack, I'll disagree. Council contingents are about
> getting scouts to
> Philmont (or NT or DH or ...) period.
<snip>
> significant upward changes are difficult. If a
> council has a dry year or
> two it can take years for them to recover.
<snip>
> A council is loath
> to take their numbers down and so will lobby troops
> on the waiting list, or
> even that have won lottery positions, to consider
> going with the council
> contingent to make their numbers. In the end this
> helps move the waiting
> list along. In our case, we participated in the
> lottery, got a number low
> enough on the waiting list to give us hope, but
> large enough to make the
> trip unlikely. In the end going with our council
> solved a problem for them,
> got us to the ranch and freed up a slot on the list
> for the next guys who
> might just get a shot. Ideally a successful council
> HA committee would end
> up sending their number with nobody left on the
> waiting list, a difficult
> outcome.
>
<snip>
> YIS
>
> Jim
> SM T6
> PSR '74, '04 & '06

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Received on Fri Nov 18 00:48:33 2005

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RE: [Philmont]: Philmont Council contingents [opposing views]