[Philmont]: bsa unit thrown off the State forest

I can answer the question implied in Jim's posting. The group size limits in the Adirondack park are imposed for land use purposes, not to keep the BSA out.

As a youth, my summer camp (Watchung Area Council) was Sabattis Wilderness Camp in the heart of the Adirondacks. I participated in a canoe trek out of Sabattis in 1971. My dad and brother took a trek in 1970 (while I was at Philmont). As a youth, I had no idea about the permit requirements or land use requirements which, in any case, were taken care of by the camp and, I am sure, scrupulously adhered to.

As an adult, I relocated to Southern New Jersey council. At some point, I suggested that my troop journey to Sabattis (now Patriot's Path council). We signed up for one trek lot and the rest of the Scouts had a very productive week at Sabattis itself, on the shores of Bear Pond, with loons crying in the night, bear precautions in force,and the challenge of patrol cooking, rather than dining hall mayhem (you may detect one of my prejudices here).

On the trek, I will not forget the time our group was approached, while canoeing down Long Lake, by a motor launch whose occupants demanded to see our permit. The voyaguer guide provided by Sabattis promptly displayed the permit. We were clearly in compliance (10 or less campers in that particular area) and were soon on our way.

In 2004, the troop again set its sights on Sabattis and again reserved one trek lot for the week of camp. However, the demographics of the troop (age wise) resulted in 12 youth and 5 adults choosing the trek option. At that point, there was not a second trek available (the camp hires only so many voyageur guides and has only so many Kevlar canoes available).

I was then placed in the postion of having to set up a crew and expedition from scratch, while a second crew operated out of the Scout camp as we had originally planned. I purchased and packaged the food (although, as many of you know, Philmont sells its trail menus at very reasonable prices), hired an outfitter for the canoes and shuttles, secured State of New York campsites for Saturday night and the following Friday night , applied to SNJ council for a tour permit (separate from the permit to be used by those going to Sabattis, although we were all travelling together by car to the same area on the same dates), and, most importantly, applied for my own permit from the State of New York,, Department of Environmental Conservation.

To get back on topic, that permit application made it very clear that the maximum group size was 10 in the area we planned on canoeing. It couldn't have been more clear. Further, in the neighbouring High Peaks area, to which Jim's New York Times article refers, it is absolutely clear that the mazimum group size is 8. It is also made absolutely clear that these 8 souls must sleep in no more that 3 tents! (leave your Zeus EXO's behind!).

My group had six days on the Adirondack Canoe trail (because I swim tested them at home). The group operating out of the camp had a five day trip. Their trip was a shorter version of our trip. We paddled past their campsite twice, they paddled past ours once. We bumped into them two other times, at a lunch stop in Long Lake Village and on a portage. The two dads on my trip had sons on the other crew, and one of the dads on the other trip had a son in my crew. We avoided any hint that we were trying to circumvent the rules by travelling together, yet we still had chances to inquire "how's your trek going?"

The High Peaks area contains most if not all of the Adirondack's 4000 footers and receives heavy traffic as a result. It is not an anti-BSA bias, as far as I can tell.

I think most of the problem stems from leaders thinking they won't get caught. (or, more ominously, when you do get caught, pleading "We're BSA. We're the good guys. Go after someone else, like poachers or some other criminals". Much like playing the PBA card at a traffic stop). After all, with well over a million acres to patrol, what are the chances? As the article and my experience shows, the chances are much greater than you might think, especially in the popular areas, and especially when large groups stick out like a sore thumb (probably one of the major reasons for limiting group size).

Our own beloved Ranch has crew size limits which are strictly enforced. These are clearly for land use reasons rather than anti-BSA reasons.

In addition to the permit process, both the BSA and local permits, which clue you in to check applicable land use regulations, checking the Fieldbook or the BSA publication "Passport to High Adventure" would reinforce the need to ascertain and follow the local regulations when planning a trip like this.

Speaking of the culture of "not getting caught" rather than "A Scout is Trustworthy", how many adults drive the boys at well over the speed limit, thinking that radar detectors or a sharp lookout for Smokey will keep them from getting caught? But that is a separate topic for a separate time (It's also covered on the tour permit- "I certify" means "I certify")

Finally, I would like to recommend (once again), high adventure experiences based in local council camps, such as that afforded by Patriot Path's Sabattis Adventure camp. These programs are often available at only a very few dollars more than the traditional Scout Camp experience. We will be returning to Sabattis in 2007 and schedule one of these trips every summer,at different camps, in conjunction with regular summer camp for the younger guys, on a rotating basis. "Passport to High Adventure" has all the pertinent info.

All for now.

Bill Sheehan, ASM
Troop 55, Pitman, N.J.
Philmont '70,'72, Autumn Adventure '01,'03,'05 (and, hopefully,'06).

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Received on Mon Nov 21 08:41:22 2005