From: Johnlebl@aol.com
Date: Wed Oct 23 2002 - 16:47:50 CDT
You definately have a problem. Not you personally, but the group. And I
suggest the problem may not be the two Scouts everyone thinks is the problem
but the interaction between others. IN other words, group dynamics.
What you advised about the mother son combination alone is enough to be a
problem. Kids aren't stupid and they don't really like those kinds of
parents getting into their lives. The son can't help it. The other two
Scouts can help it by not attending. More than likely it was not created
overnight and won't be solved overnight.
It will take some time and some work but I assure you that all time spent
working with Scouts solving problems will not be deducted from your life but
added to it's enrichment.
None of us can give the solution, just suggestions and ideas we have seen
work and not work over the years.
I'll make a couple more comments and then let you go about solving the issue.
First off. The program is for the Scouts and when schedules are made to fit
adults and it interferes with Scouts activities, expect problems to arrise.
On the other side of that coin, without adult going, the Scouts can't so
there you have it.
Since the program is for the Scouts, then they, not the Veternarian and her
son, need to make the decisions.
I see this a lot more with Scout troops than Venturing crews even though the
ages of the youth is the same. One would think the Scouts could do a better
job but in truth they keep reverting back to the way a Scout troop operates,
whereas a Venturing Crew operates differently.
Venturing Crews are run by the youth, or should be if done right. youth this
age are quite capable of making their own decisions WITHOUT a mother backing
her son in demanding perfect attendance.
Why does telling mom to just butt out keep popping up in my mind?
When a youth wants to be in two places at the same time frustration is the
natural outcome. Proper leadership helps them through these issues of
learning how to deal with it. Requiring 100% or even 60% participation is
NOT the answer. This only aggrivates the issue.
Let me give you an example on an adult level.. I work shift work. For any
given day of the week, I am either on days, on nights or off or off. The
schedule repeats itself every four weeks.
Right now there is nothing I would like to do more on Friday night than go to
our local HS football game. Not to watch football, but to watch the band
perform. My daughter is one of five twirlers in the band. All five are
Ventruing Crew members.
Last Friday I worked nights adn could not go. Well, I could trade with
someone who is off when I am scheduled to work on Friday night but is that
fair to ask someone else to give up another of their Friday nights they are
off and want to be with their family? No, it isn't so I just do my duty and
go to work. Yes, I'd rather be at the game but the example that I set for
my daughter is vastly more important than my perfect attendance at the games.
My work obligation adn thoughtfullness to my fellow workers comes first.
Same thing happened two weeks ago. I was supposed to go on an Autum
Adventure to Philmont with a group from Austin, Texas. At the last minute
all vacations were cancelled where I work due to Hurricane Lilli and we had
to shut the plant down which takes about 4 days to do. Afterward it takes a
full two weeks to restart and work out all the bugs.
I did not get to go on Autum Adventure to Philmont.
What if that leader had made a rule of 100% attendance? Isn't that even
silly to suggest? Then why do we make rules requiring attendance of youth?
If the program is worthy of attendance they will come..............most of
the time. If it isn't worthy, then fix the program. It's broken, not the
Scouts. Attendance rules don't fix the problem, they simply add to it.
And BTW, testosterone has a lot more to do with it than all the other factors
combined. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. More than likely it
was the driving factor on the homecomming decision.
So you have kids active in numerous activities. Isn't it a little smug or
even egotystical on our part to expect they choose OUR activities over
others? I think so.
>From the added information below I seem to get the idea that since the crew
leader gave up something then he expects all the rest to also give up things
too. That was his decision, not theirs and he should not expect others
actions to be like his.
First off, nobody sees things in the same light. Just because the other two
Scouts don't see it the same way as he does or even as all the rest including
all the adult leaders is not a measure of whether they are right or wrong.
None of us know this situation better than you do. However I will say this.
I have seen some of the most maverick Scouts grow up and become some of the
finest men, fathers, husbands, businessmen and Scout leaders around.
Just because two Scouts walk the beat of a different drummer does not mean
they are wrong.
The ones who are wrong are those identifying them as "problems". They might
just have different needs.
As long as they are not breaking any laws of the municipality, state and
United States and follow the rules set forth by the National BSA policy, I
think they are pretty much within the bounds of society whether others think
so or not.
Many troops make a set of their own rules to force desired behavior. I have
never seen these work well in the over fifty years I have been associated
with Scouting.
Surely the troop leadership can come up with an answer.
I highly recommend you call on your assigned Unit Comissioner for help with
this matter. They either possess the tools or have ready access to the
tools you need.
John LeBlanc
Eagle Class of 1959
Unit Commissioner Orange District
Phirst Phil Ptrek 1959
PhilTrek 2002 630H2 Trek 16
My latest adventure was yesterday,
Today is not over yet!
> I want to thank everyone for their input. I did a few private replies, but
> I will respond to this one from John for everyone's benefit.
>
> First the scheduling problem. This event, sponsored by our O.A. Lodge, is
> an annual Council event that our troop attends because we have very active
> troop OA members. The event is called the Iron Horse Hike and is offered
> for scouts of all ages from Tiger Cubs to seasoned troops. The OA members
> worked the registration and food stands in the morning, then the Philmont
> Crew set out in the afternoon for a hike in backpacks. This was then our
> regular monthly campout with the Philmont Crew doing its own thing, and the
>
> rest of the troop, who will doing a different backpacking excursion while
> the crew is at Philmont, doing is own practice hike.
>
> The practice hikes went extremely well with each of the different crews
> being fully youth led in choosing the trails, organizing the time of the
> hike, and running the event. The missing boys were not mentioned until the
>
> meeting the next Monday. He may be a bit upset at the two scouts and was
> most concerned about missing his first chance to see how they will interact
>
> in the team situation.
>
> We chose the dates for our trek around adult schedules. The crew leader
> almost decided *not* to go to Philmont for two reasons. First, he thought
> he was going to have problems with two scouts...the two who just happened
> to be missing. Second, to go to Philmont, this crew leader will be missing
>
> the 4H Fair where he would have gotten a 10 year pin for 10 consecutive
> years of participation. He had been looking forward to this for 9 years,
> but decided that Philmont was now or never. He would have been expected to
>
> win one or more of the horse riding events at the both the county and state
>
> level...events which he will be missing. (We chose the dates for our trek
>
> around adult schedules.) It was a very difficult decision for him. He
> committed to Philmont when I convinced him that the adults will help him
> with any issues that come up with the two scouts. Now the scouts were not
> there for the first big test. I do not blame him for being disappointed.
>
> Yes, he does expect a lot from himself and more from the other
> scouts. There is the air of his trying to whip the crew into shape, but he
>
> was elected crew leader, and the rest of the scouts seem to be respecting
> his leadership and style and working with him.
>
> After I was informed of the issue he was having of the two scouts missing
> the event, I talked with both of the missing scouts. They are well aware
> of the new expectations that will be placed on them. They have said they
> will attend all future events. We do know that sometimes good intentions
> do not mean actions, so we will monitor the schedule and work with the
> scouts and their parents to see that they do attend except for real
> unavoidable conflicts.
>
> No one but the crew leader and his mother said a work about the two missing
>
> crew members. One additional crew member was missing, but nothing was said
>
> about that issue. The other crew member is a Notre Dame student who is an
> ASM, and will be a youth member in the crew (he will be 20 years old while
> at Philmont). We are letting him go as a youth member as this will be his
> first trip. Notre Dame students were on break and he was at home in
> Massachusetts.
>
> I plan on leaving the issue alone and seeing what happens over the next few
>
> months. We will make sure that future events are well known ahead of time,
>
> and that everyone understands what is expected of them. There are other
> issues with other scouts that also need to be worked out to make this
> entire team a crew, but it will come with time.
>
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