The Phil-list Oct_2007: [Philmont] The hare and the tortice

From: Larry Taylor <Larry.Taylor@co.travis.tx.us>
Date: Mon Oct 22 2007 - 13:57:58 CDT

Mark;
I understand your aggravation over having a slow-poke. We had a Dad on our trek this summer who was the first to get up and ALWAYS the last to be ready to leave campsite -- I am really convinced he was passively resisting the rest of the crew because HE was not in charge. Then on the trail he was always last in line! He slowed us down but not as slow as you are talking and really since we all stayed together we out-paced some groups who would attack uphill switchbacks with the exuberance of youth then take a off-pack break to pant hard while we slowly trudged by them time and again.

But to answer your question!

I would have the SPL or ASPL or Crew Leader with the rest of the PLC or crew make up a time
control plan. In it spell out when and where (use maps) breaks will be taken for water and photo taking. Maybe an afternoon activity can be a 1-2 hour day hike for a photo safari for 4 or more people!

Then, Have a side discussion with the photobug and other slow people to make them understand that
while you appreciate them taking photos to share with everyone, this is a backpacking trek not a photo safari. On photo safaris the pace is dictated by the photo-opportunities -- on a backpacking trek the pace is dictated by time control plans for camp activities after the trial has been trod. Neither photo safari nor backpacking trek are superior -- they are just different activities.

It sounds like this photo-bug Scout has led the troop on a photo safari, so its his turn to enjoy a backpacking trek! Here is what I might say in the side discussion with the photo-bug: "Photos will be taken ONLY at scheduled breaks or when the crew stops because of stream crossing or to check maps. You may not stop the crew to get a great group photo or to get a picture of the scenery or to get a rare butterfly or bird photo. If you want to let the photo opportunities to dictate the stops while backpacking then lets schedule a photo safari. Otherwise, the camera if the camera comes out it is surrendered to the Scoutmaster in charge of the trek until the end of the trek! We all have to learn self discipline with different behaviors -- some people will have to pack up their cards and not play until lunch or in tents at night -- some people will have to wait a little longer until a break to get a drink,
some people have to wait until a packs off break to change their shirt. You have to learn when its appropriate to take photos during a backpacking trek!"

If an Adults is moving slow then look to the cause.
Are they out of shape (I was an needed to work daily on it!)?
Suggest to ALL adults that we live the Scout Oath also -- stress the 'Keep myself physically strong"
Part. Suggest "we all start a fitness plan!"

Did they pack wisely? Our slow poke was the most out of shape guy BUT if had taken direction then we could have lightened his load by 10 pounds without impacting safety or health -- do you really need a satellite phone (and if yes then where in Philmont are you going to plug in its charger?)

I could have gone through his pack and lightened it at least 14 lbs ( with spending no more than $5).

He carried like 5 nalgenes always full even on the days we hiked through Canyons with beautiful running streams! I carried 2 nalgenes until when climbed out of these canyons -Like between Greenwood Canyon and Copper Park! So he carried 6 pounds in water more than I did!

Have one of the slow poke adults share your tent and then insist that you do not know how to pack it but to keep it together (you carry the entire thing). My tentmate did this to me and it made a difference ( I still say prayers for him!). My tentmate who was in better shape ( an quietly knew it also) I think also carried more than his share of crew gear!

Teach an Adult only class on backpacking light and give personal invitations to the slow poke adults!
When they say that they can not make it -- ask when they can so that you can schedule appropriately.
Show them the difference between different gear and how much can be left at home!

This past weekend for Sat and Sunday a 2 1/2 mile hike in and the same out, had 1 Scout with 4 clothing changes (3 stayed in the car) and another with 2 heavy jackknifes and another with enough food for me to eat well for a day in case he did not like what his patrol planned (it was all left in the car). Then I took the backpacking cook kits which had skillet,and 2 sizes pots and left it all in the car except the larger pot. The only thing that they were cooking was boiling water for Ramen.

Adults make stupid decisions like this also! Some think that since it all fits into my pack I can take it!
I pulled a adult's pack out of the Bus at 6-mile turn around that MUST of weighed 75 pounds!!!
One of the Adults on our trek wore Jeans this past weekend -- I am thinking of gifting him with a pair
of treking pants for Christmas! Shhhh!

Some of the things that I like about Scouts besides team-building is building up communication skills and personal discipline.
YiS
Sam Taylor ASM T89 Austin, Texas
Philmont Expedition 701-H1 trek 9
"I once was a Bear ......."

>>> On 19-Oct-07 at 1:09 AM, in message <MDAEMON-F200710190110.AA1028510pd50004607047@troop47.com>, Mark Liechty <mlaccs@mlaccs.com> wrote:
John LeBlanc wrote:

> Since Jim addressed the "punishment" I don't have to. If you as a
leader feel it is punishing the stronger, faster kids, then you are a
little prejudiced toward them and against the others in the first place.
>
> I'll use our AA trip for example. Not using names, we started out
for Hart Peak. At the top, some wanted to go back the switchback trail
while others continued on to Indian Writings.
>
> Quite often it is found in a contingent rather than an established
troop and the older/faster crew member s are out to prove their prowess.
There are many ways to correct this depending on how hard core their
case may be but cure it you must least the younger/slower/weaker of the
group have a miserable time.
>

###############################

John:

Wonderful discussion. Ask a question and get attacked. You have a
great way of setting the tone so your opinion becomes the only correct
answer. Lord knows I am truly one of the big strong guys who likes to
pick on weaklings and set cats on fire. Damn good thing you pointed
that out quickly.

I was not talking about the AA trip. I was on that hike with you, John,
and you KNOW that I spent a lot of time at the back of the crew, the
middle of the crew and yes, a bit at the front as well. I do that on
most hikes as it lets me spend time with the entire crew. I do not wish
to discuss that day in this forum. It turned into one of the worst in
over 30 years of Scouting. Your memories of that day is very different
than mine and it is best that you leave it alone.

It took me 30 years to get to Philmont for the first time. Less than a
year for my second trip. Since that first trip I have been able to take
the excitement and lessons learned back to my home troop. Many of those
lessons have come from asking "dumb" questions at camp and on the list.
I have a thick skin and a small brain so I don't mind taking a chance
and putting myself out on the line.

My troop that may never field a crew to Philmont (or just might, ya
never know) It is a troop that is now getting into backpacking and is
facing many challenges.

One of those challenges is that we have a couple of people who want to
go on trips but are dead slow. I don't mean they lag behind enough that
they are stopping the rabbits. I mean that they stop and take pictures
of everything on the trail and don't care that they are taking 2-3 times
longer than the rest of the troop.

One of these young men is planning on going on a 5 mile backpack trip in
four weeks. If he goes and we put him in front it is probable that we
will not be setting up camp in daylight and since none of is have been
to the area his presence puts the entire troop in jeopardy. I am not
kidding when I say there are boys who could carry this kid and his gear
and still make better time.

The word "punish" is the correct word for what happens to the rest of
the troop. They are forced to move at a pace that causes cramping and
depletes water supplies. They are forced to do what should be a 2-3
hour hike in 5 hours and they lose the chance to enjoy resting and
playing at camp.

So again, I ask the list, what do you do if you are me? If the problem
is not fixed we will never get these guys to the ranch as the troop will
quickly revert back to a car camping country club.

Mark

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Received on Mon Oct 22 14:17:03 2007

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