The Phil-list Sep_2006: [Philmont] Pack Size

From: Garrett, Russ <Russ.Garrett@bullivant.com>
Date: Sat Sep 16 2006 - 00:27:07 CDT

I generally agree with Jim and, I agree here. I have an internal frame
pack. On occasion I like to carry my 1970's Kelty. It is a huge external
frame pack and it is at least 3 lbs lighter than my ArcTeryx Bora 80
internal frame pack.

There are many places that I won't take the kelty anymore. It was a great
pack in it's day and I backpacked at Philmont with it. Today's internal
frame packs are everything Jim said they are and the extra savings in weight
I would get from the old kelty are offset by the better "ride". As Jim has
said in earlier emails. Get a good fit. Try out packs until you get fit
right.

--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

Russ Garrett
Bullivant|Houser|Bailey PC
805 Broadway Street, Suite 400
Vancouver, WA 98660-3310
mailto:russ.garrett@bullivant.com
direct dial: 360.737.3363 - fax: 360.695.8504
http://www.bullivant.com
Seattle . Vancouver . Portland . Sacramento . San Francisco . Las Vegas

-----Original Message-----
From: James H. Moss
To: Philmont List Member
Sent: Fri Sep 15 22:04:49 2006
Subject: [Philmont] Pack Size

The reason why manufactures are not producing external frames is internal
frames are more comfortable, carry more, lighter, haul a greater variety,
fit more types of items, ride better, produce less back problems, allow you
to carry, heavier loads without the feeling of the weight, etc. External
frames have a larger variety of openings besides or in addition to top
loading so you can pack easier and better. You can access stuff on the
bottom without unloading the entire pack. You can carry your stove and fuel
on the outside in an external pocket and keep the fuel away from sleeping
bag, clothes and food. Most internal frames have built in hydration storage
with tube exits.

Smoke jumpers have all converted to internal frames. All branches of the
military have converted to internal frames. NOLS and Outward Bound have
converted to internal frames (over 15 years ago). The last external frame
on Everest was in the late 70's.

We have this discussion before. Packs are not made based on whims, but based
on what the consumer is buying. Kelty, JanSport and Alps are the only mfg
making external frames anymore (and I'm not sure about Alps next year)
because once you carrier an internal frame you won't carrier an external
frame. The market just is not there.

As far as size goes I carry a large internal frame. I am cautious about
packing it. An internal frame allows you to tighten the straps down so no
matter what is in it, it rides close to your body. So if in an emergency I
need more space, I have it. Yet I can carry what I want without sway, etc.
Tent poles, ice axes, wands, etc can be strapped to the outside. Wet clothes
and tents can be strapped on the outside to dry.

A large internal frame is still lighter than any external frame.

Jim

Jim

Recreation.Law@gmail.com

James H. Moss, Attorney specializing in Recreation Law

Editor, Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Review:
The Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Reviews are publications for members of
the Outdoor Recreation, Adventure Travel, Hospitality and Fitness Industry
lawreview@snewsnet.com
http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/law_review/index.html

Associate Instructor: The Department of Parks, Recreation, and Tourism,
University of Utah
Graduate and Undergraduate class
http://www.health.Utah.edu/prt/

Instructor: Ski Area Operations, Risk Management Course Colorado Mountain
College
jmoss@coloradomtn.edu
http://www.coloradomtn.edu/programs/sao/home.html

PO Box 16743
Golden, CO 80402
303-807-2275
Personal Email: jhmoss@gmail.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this email

_____

From: Philmont@troop47.com [mailto:Philmont@troop47.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Winney
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:24 PM
To: Philmont List Member
Subject: [Philmont] Pack Size

The problem is a complete lack of manufacturers producing external frames.
The "in" thing now is internal frame packs. Thus, manufacturers, bowing to
the fickle whim of the uninformed masses, only produce internal frame
product. Take a look at the equipment guide edition of Backpacker magazine.
It lists dozens and dozens of packs. Only about 6 are external frame.
That being said, Pete is right. Internals of 5-7000 cu in are probably the
best bet, if thats your preference. I used a Kelty Super Tioga (external
frame, thank you) this past summer on my trek. It's listed at 4900 cu in,
but I had plenty of room for everything.

Craig Winney

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Swiggum
To: Philmont List Member
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:46 PM
Subject: [Philmont] Pack Size

This is only an educated guess, but I would think between 2/3 and 3/4 of the
backpacks that you see on the trail at Philmont (or on any other trails, for
that matter) are internal frame packs between 5000 and 7000 cubic inches.
Some will have outside pockets, some will not. It's all about personal
preference and thinking about what you need in a pack.

Doesn't mean external frame packs are bad. Far from it. Many are
fantastic. It's just that more backpackers use internal frame packs.

Pete Swiggum
Green Bay, WI

----- Original Message -----
From: John Geyster
To: Philmont List Member
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:18 PM
Subject: [Philmont] Pack Size

What size pack volume have folks been using at Philmont recently?

Internal or External?

Did you have enough room, to much or to little?

I used a 120 liter pack in 2004 and thinking of dropping down to a 70 liter
in 2007. The 70 liter worked fine for a 7 day trip this summer with no
re-supply. But then, I don’t carry as much excess stuff as at Philmont.

John Geyster

SM Troop 15

Shelburne Falls, MA.

-------------------------------------------------------
Scouting E-mail Discussion Lists @ usscouts.org
Listserv Commands at http://usscouts.org/lists/lc.asp
-------------------------------------------------------
Send listserv commands to: listserv@troop47.com
Send postings to: philmont@troop47.com
List FAQ found at: http://usscouts.org/lists/faq.asp
List Administrator: philmont_owner@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------
To Unsubscribe send text email to:

     To: listserv@troop47.com
     Subject: unsubscribe
     Body: unsubscribe philmont@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------

As you gather around this virtual campfire with fellow
Scouts and Scouters, do your best to be trustworthy,
loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
-------------------------------------------------------

_____

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 9/13/2006

     To: listserv@troop47.com
     Subject: unsubscribe
     Body: unsubscribe philmont@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------

_____

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 9/13/2006

     To: listserv@troop47.com
     Subject: unsubscribe
     Body: unsubscribe philmont@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------

"Bullivant.com" made the following annotations on 09/15/06, 22:35:45
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be advised that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this e-mail, including attachments, is not intended to be used by any person for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service.
*********************************************************
This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contains information belonging to Bullivant Houser Bailey, which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
==============================================================================

     To: listserv@troop47.com
     Subject: unsubscribe
     Body: unsubscribe philmont@troop47.com
-------------------------------------------------------

Received on Sat Sep 16 00:31:51 2006

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed Dec 03 2008 - 13:55:54 CST